General Retail News

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If I were Place d'Orléans management I might be concerned about Target eventually packing up and moving to Innes as well.

I know people will say that with all the development southwards that Innes will someday be at the centre of Orleans, but it still seems weird to me that so much of the shopping in a community is concentrated in one extremity. I mean, from some places in northeast Orleans, the businesses on the Innes strip are almost as far as St Laurent Shopping Centre, and probably take longer to get to because of all of the stoplights. It just doesn't make sense from a community planning standpoint, and is even more stupid when you consider that Orleans already had a main shopping strip and "heart" on St Joseph. Place d'Orléans stole some thunder from St Joseph but at least it was along the same axis.

This "jettisoning" of an established main street in favour a new one is just soooo reminescent of the worst planning decisions made by so many cities over the past few decades, and explains why you now have decline and blight on many commercial streets even in fairly prosperous suburbs in the US.

If the LRT is extended to Orleans, it could certainly act as a redevelopment trigger. Innes is definitely a mess, but I guess they were "bribed" by the big boxes who had no other obvious location to set up in Orleans. The distance along the whole stretch is about 3 km - too long for most people to walk while shopping between stores. To put it in perspective, that is roughly the same distance along Bank Street between Parliament and Lansdowne Park.

[ars]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If I were Place d'Orléans management I might be concerned about Target eventually packing up and moving to Innes as well.

I know people will say that with all the development southwards that Innes will someday be at the centre of Orleans, but it still seems weird to me that so much of the shopping in a community is concentrated in one extremity. I mean, from some places in northeast Orleans, the businesses on the Innes strip are almost as far as St Laurent Shopping Centre, and probably take longer to get to because of all of the stoplights. It just doesn't make sense from a community planning standpoint, and is even more stupid when you consider that Orleans already had a main shopping strip and "heart" on St Joseph. Place d'Orléans stole some thunder from St Joseph but at least it was along the same axis.

This "jettisoning" of an established main street in favour a new one is just soooo reminescent of the worst planning decisions made by so many cities over the past few decades, and explains why you now have decline and blight on many commercial streets even in fairly prosperous suburbs in the US.

I agree with you, St Joseph is a central location in Orleans, it's the heart of Orleans for all intents and purposes and it would have made most sense to develop it as the "downtown" of Orleans.

I think St Joseph is a bit beaten up and worn down, but I would have preferred a complete renovation to bring it up to modern day standards. But, like with every decision this city makes, I think it came to down to the bottom line, and the bottom line was that it was cheaper to develop undeveloped land than it was to redevelop St Joseph. A lot of the buildings on St Joseph fit right into the Ugly Ottawa thread on here and need to be demolished IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

If the LRT is extended to Orleans, it could certainly act as a redevelopment trigger. Innes is definitely a mess, but I guess they were "bribed" by the big boxes who had no other obvious location to set up in Orleans. The distance along the whole stretch is about 3 km - too long for most people to walk while shopping between stores. To put it in perspective, that is roughly the same distance along Bank Street between Parliament and Lansdowne Park.

Yeah... If I recall the plans for rapid transit in the Innes area anyway, the lines would run right through the residential portion south of Innes and not in any way close to the commercial strip in order for it to be of use to patrons and workers. It's really going to be a commuter service to downtown (similar to the Transitway) as opposed to something that would structure the development of the entire area for all uses (live, work, shop, play).

Now if LRT were extended to Place d'Orléans along the 174, this might re-energize this part of Orleans. It already has better bones.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by ars

I agree with you, St Joseph is a central location in Orleans, it's the heart of Orleans for all intents and purposes and it would have made most sense to develop it as the "downtown" of Orleans.

I think St Joseph is a bit beaten up and worn down, but I would have preferred a complete renovation to bring it up to modern day standards. But, like with every decision this city makes, I think it came to down to the bottom line, and the bottom line was that it was cheaper to develop undeveloped land than it was to redevelop St Joseph. A lot of the buildings on St Joseph fit right into the Ugly Ottawa thread on here and need to be demolished IMO.

Big box stores don't make a "downtown" in any real sense typically...I'm thinking more in the way of offices and residential as well, perhaps to shift some of the development eastward. There really aren't that many jobs in Orleans, at least not compared to Kanata.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah... If I recall the plans for rapid transit in the Innes area anyway, the lines would run right through the residential portion south of Innes and not in any way close to the commercial strip in order for it to be of use to patrons and workers. It's really going to be a commuter service to downtown (similar to the Transitway) as opposed to something that would structure the development of the entire area for all uses (live, work, shop, play).

Now if LRT were extended to Place d'Orléans along the 174, this might re-energize this part of Orleans. It already has better bones.

The trouble is, from an infrastructure spend perspective, it would make more sense to build the new southern Orleans rapid transit corridor LRT from the beginning rather than building a BRT, then tearing up the northern Orleans BRT and replacing it with LRT. I think there may well be dark days ahead for St Joseph and Place.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by gjhall

The trouble is, from an infrastructure spend perspective, it would make more sense to build the new southern Orleans rapid transit corridor LRT from the beginning rather than building a BRT, then tearing up the northern Orleans BRT and replacing it with LRT. I think there may well be dark days ahead for St Joseph and Place.

There is no Transitway there though...the bus lanes could easily be converted to general traffic lanes with minor ramp revisions. So a new LRT route would be a new corridor essentially.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

There is no Transitway there though...the bus lanes could easily be converted to general traffic lanes with minor ramp revisions. So a new LRT route would be a new corridor essentially.

Don't underestimate the City's poor decision making skills.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

-Abercrombie & Fitch
-Hollister
-Pottery Barn
-Tiffany & Co
-Victoria Secret
-Gucci
-Armani Exchange
-Disney Store
-Express
-J Crew
-Juicy Couture
-Levi's
-Louis Vuitton
-Nike Store
-Sony

If they NCC wasn't so uptight, some of these would be great on Sussex.

Acajack touched on Les Promenades earlier. The renovations will no doubt be a huge improvement and could hurt the St-Laurent Centre (or at least further slow down Morgard's St-Laurent expansion plans until the Feds boarder agency builds their new complex south of the Queensway) but the key to whether or not they can stop Gatineau's population shopping at the Rideau Centre is whether or not they can attract that second Simons location to Les Promenades. Of course their is always a chance St-Laurent gets that coveted second Simons within the next 10 years.

eternallyme, I agree that moving the STO to the Mackenzie King Bridge would be a good mid term solution. That would at least clear the main shopping area of Rideau Centre/Hudson Bay's.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by gjhall

The trouble is, from an infrastructure spend perspective, it would make more sense to build the new southern Orleans rapid transit corridor LRT from the beginning rather than building a BRT, then tearing up the northern Orleans BRT and replacing it with LRT. I think there may well be dark days ahead for St Joseph and Place.

There is the redevelopment going on just north of Place (check it out in the suburbs forum) that will bring people and jobs to the area.

Regarding LRT, the 174 Orleans LRT should be built at the same time as the Western LRT. The south Orleans LRT should be built right along Innes as a traditional at-grade LRT. That could trigger an urban re-development of Innes. For that reason, I'd say we should wait until the existing development starts to get old and tired, around 2030 or so, before building the Innes LRT.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Acajack touched on Les Promenades earlier. The renovations will no doubt be a huge improvement and could hurt the St-Laurent Centre (or at least further slow down Morgard's St-Laurent expansion plans until the Feds boarder agency builds their new complex south of the Queensway) but the key to whether or not they can stop Gatineau's population shopping at the Rideau Centre is whether or not they can attract that second Simons location to Les Promenades. Of course their is always a chance St-Laurent gets that coveted second Simons within the next 10 years.

I would bet on the second regional Simons, if there is one, going to Gatineau after going to Rideau first. If and when this gets to be a serious idea (a 2nd Simons), they will begin doing their market research including postal code compilations at Rideau. The numbers for Gatineau postal codes will likely be through the roof - at least compared to what they will be for east end Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

it's neither, Acajacques

I like your sense of humour!

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Regarding LRT, the 174 Orleans LRT should be built at the same time as the Western LRT.

I've been thinking about this myself. I imagine it would make sense to build the east extension along the 174 at the same time as the western extension. I'd love to hear from people on this forum with knowledge of transit infrastructure as to whether something like this could happen.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I've been thinking about this myself. I imagine it would make sense to build the east extension along the 174 at the same time as the western extension. I'd love to hear from people on this forum with knowledge of transit infrastructure as to whether something like this could happen.

From what I've heard it wouldn't be too technologically difficult, in fact it would be easier than the West LRT.

It better happen soon. Orleans with its hundred thousand people needs to have a decent downtown. LRT could be just the thing needed to make it happen. Normally I'd say its very difficult to create urban-style retail in the 'burbs, but Orleans is a bit of an odd one out. It's already got very high transit ridership, for example, unlike most other suburbs.

[J.OT13]

I know we are going off topic but...

As I've said before, I don't see the point in building BRT and then converting it. Building the north Orleans LRT line (along the 174 to Trim) makes so much sense its ridiculous. An underground station (along with underground park and ride facility, although the current one is across the 174 so it might be fine with a slight expansion) at Place d'Orleans could prompt a complete redevelopment of the mall. I've never been, but from what I've heard on the forum, the place is on death row.

I envision a new street grid through the site, a couple 12 storey office buildings, apartments and condos, retail in every building at ground level, possibly a decent hotel, the Shenkman Centre is already next door, a town square with a possible farmers market. Basically a true urban experience.

Further down the line, they could build a smaller version at Trim to serve the College and Petrie’s Landing.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I know we are going off topic but...

As I've said before, I don't see the point in building BRT and then converting it. Building the north Orleans LRT line (along the 174 to Trim) makes so much sense its ridiculous. An underground station (along with underground park and ride facility, although the current one is across the 174 so it might be fine with a slight expansion) at Place d'Orleans could prompt a complete redevelopment of the mall. I've never been, but from what I've heard on the forum, the place is on death row.

I envision a new street grid through the site, a couple 12 storey office buildings, apartments and condos, retail in every building at ground level, possibly a decent hotel, the Shenkman Centre is already next door, a town square with a possible farmers market. Basically a true urban experience.

Further down the line, they could build a smaller version at Trim to serve the College and Petrie’s Landing.

To say its on death row is a bit of an exaggeration. It gets decent patronage from Orleans residents and from a lot of people in Prescott-Russell as well. It's just a bit too big for its customer base.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

To say its on death row is a bit of an exaggeration. It gets decent patronage from Orleans residents and from a lot of people in Prescott-Russell as well. It's just a bit too big for its customer base.

My mistake, I've never actually been there. Like I said, it was just sort of the feeling I got from what I've read in the forum. Would it still be worth a complete (or partial) tear down in the next 10-20 years if it were served by LRT?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

My mistake, I've never actually been there. Like I said, it was just sort of the feeling I got from what I've read in the forum. Would it still be worth a complete (or partial) tear down in the next 10-20 years if it were served by LRT?

I was going to chime in about Place d'Orléans as I've been there twice this summer as there is a store there that my kids really like at the moment - and Place is its only location in the area.

I'd say reports of its death are greatly exaggerated, although I am totally unfamiliar with how much sales volume its stores need in order to stay afloat.

What I will say is that it is very noticeably much less busy than any other comparably-sized mall in the region: and by this I mean Rideau, St Laurent, Bayshore and also Les Promenades in Gatineau. It is also much less busy than a smaller mall like Les Galeries de Hull.

As has been said I think it might be too large for the area it was primarily built to serve.

[Schattenjager]

As previously mentioned, Place was a lot busier when Wal-Mart was there and Innes didn't become the new destination for shopping. Perhaps Target will bring back some of the traffic, maybe not.

I'm assuming that the introduction of the 94 on Innes most likely didn't help Place's situation since Place used to be the central transit hub of Orleans.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I know we are going off topic but...

As I've said before, I don't see the point in building BRT and then converting it. Building the north Orleans LRT line (along the 174 to Trim) makes so much sense its ridiculous. An underground station (along with underground park and ride facility, although the current one is across the 174 so it might be fine with a slight expansion) at Place d'Orleans could prompt a complete redevelopment of the mall. I've never been, but from what I've heard on the forum, the place is on death row.

I envision a new street grid through the site, a couple 12 storey office buildings, apartments and condos, retail in every building at ground level, possibly a decent hotel, the Shenkman Centre is already next door, a town square with a possible farmers market. Basically a true urban experience.

Further down the line, they could build a smaller version at Trim to serve the College and Petrie’s Landing.

I love that idea! There have been similar redevelopments done - many replacing existing shopping centres that either fell out of use or were obsolete - especially in the US.

A possible model in the US that was I heard of from elsewhere

Most likely there would be somewhat fewer stores (and few or no anchors) but much more room for independent retailers. Any retail component could be heavily skewed towards St. Joseph Boulevard to maximize its potential, and perhaps a "grand boulevard" along Champlain Street (remaining on its current line, through the middle of what is now Place d'Orleans) leading from the transit station to St. Joseph.

I agree Innes Road has really hurt, and the demographics also play a role. It is more of the big box warehouse type than the shopping mall type there these days. Getting out of its shadow with an urban-type development would allow a new identity to be made while bringing new jobs and residents to the area as well.

Back in the 1980s, it was probably smart to build a major mall in the area which was fast growing and Ottawa had no real dominant mall. But with the trend towards super-regionals and dominant malls, the time has probably come for a major change.

Interesting mention about the 94, and yes that might have played a role as well, significantly reducing the number of bus trips to Place d'Orleans as those from the southern part of Orleans have a direct trip downtown (or a transfer connection from elsewhere) even as ridership has increased greatly in the area as a whole. I remember initially it was rush hour only, then adding more time periods, and now it is a heavily-used all-day route.

Who knows though? Maybe in the 2020s that area might develop into something special and attract unique retailers, especially locally owned, if redeveloped?

[1overcosc]

There's the redevelopment currently planned by Minto on the north side of the 174, basically mixed-use retail, housing, office ranging from 4 to 8 stories, getting taller nearer the highway. In the long term, Minto also wants to buy the park & ride and build three office buildings, two 9-story and one 11-story on that site. Here's a link:http://webcast.ottawa.ca/plan/All_Im...ept%20Plan.PDF

This development might keep Place going on longer in its current state. With extra people and workers around it could draw more foot traffic thus allowing the mall to stay. Or it could prompt demand for rebuilding the area as part of a downtown. Who knows?

The 94 was a BIG loss to Place. All the kids in Orleans used to always hang out there on weekends by taking the bus there, now they all take the 94 and hang out at St. Laurent or the Rideau Centre instead.