Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Wow, offensive, thats kind of a douche reply

16 of 29 MLS teams operate at a loss (easy google search if you’re willing to be a big boy)… that league hanging on by a thread too?

The league with the biggest football star in history is doing just fine...

It's just too bad that they call it a soccer league, when most of the teams call themselves football clubs.

The CFL and the MLS just are not comparable leagues... many MLS clubs are worth upwards of a billion or more. The entire CFL isn't even worth a single billion.

Originally Posted by elly63

Now you're just getting ridiculous. Get something shipped on Intelcom, they show an animation of a truck going across Canada. To depict Toronto they have the CN Tower and the Skydome and in Montreal it's the cross on Mont Royal and the Olympic Stadium. Here's your postcard

The Biosphere is often used to represent Montreal too.

I think Olympic Stadium deserves a proper renovation... and a football/soccer specific renovation makes a lot of sense.

However, what wouldn't make sense is for the stadium to simply sit for most of the year, while the Montreal Football Club of the MLS plays their games at Saputo Stadium with Olympic stadium in the background.



They were able to install grass at Olympic Stadium for a single friendly versus AC Milan ... and once they have the roof situation figured out, they should also be able to figure out solutions to have real turf available for MLS games.

I don't think it makes sense to spend all this money on refurbishing Olympic Stadium if it's only going to be used sporadically. Montreal's Olympic Stadium has the potential to be the biggest and best football/soccer stadium in all of Canada.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think Olympic Stadium deserves a proper renovation... and a football/soccer specific renovation makes a lot of sense.

However, what wouldn't make sense is for the stadium to simply sit for most of the year, while the Montreal Football Club of the MLS plays their games at Saputo Stadium with Olympic stadium in the background.

They were able to install grass at Olympic Stadium for a single friendly versus AC Milan ... and once they have the roof situation figured out, they should also be able to figure out solutions to have real turf available for MLS games.

I don't think it makes sense to spend all this money on refurbishing Olympic Stadium if it's only going to be used sporadically. Montreal's Olympic Stadium has the potential to be the biggest and best football/soccer stadium in all of Canada.

You are making reasonable points so I will respond reasonably. Unfortunately you are raising some points that we have been through before and aren't reasonably possible even if I wish they could happen.

It is too expensive to try and keep turf indoors. As I said the Jays commissioned a big study and trials through Guelph and they decided it wasn't practical or worth the cost. And that is with a roof that opens not a fixed roof like Montreal.

The stadium is too big for both the Als and CFM who need a sub 30k rightsized rectilinear stadium. CFM will not go back to playing on artificial turf and the costs are too prohibitive to try and grow grass on a permanent basis. The cost for a one game turf installation can be from 700k to one million dollars.

It can't be the best football or soccer venue as the seats are too far away from the field and there are too many seats when CFM are drawing 16k and the Als 20k

As for being used sporadically that's the whole idea of the roof refurb, to get dates because of the dates they were losing in the winter because of the unreliability of the roof.

The article I posted earlier about BC Place stated how single events are more profitable than the games with their regular tenants. The tenants get a preferred rate compared to one offs. It also showed how a building can be successful without having core tenants.

I agree with all your wishes and dreams except the practicality. I wish they could happen too but they won't (unless something drastic happens).

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by logan5

The rule changes are drastic, but the CFL is clearly desperate and this is really its last gasps to survive.

I'll admit that I am not a CFL fan, and I would love to have an NFL team in Vancouver, so if the CFL were to die...

BC Place meets NFL standards so there is a suitable venue, and I know people will say the money isn't there, but with an ownership group, the money is there.

The NFL would certainly want to tap a new NFL crazy market of 40 million people.

The CFL owners certainly seem motivated for a big shakeup, but I have suspicions that it's chasing a T V or Private Equity payoff, and not because they are inherently unsustainable right now. I think they are playing up the "last gasp" to justify something else. Taking that at face value shows either a lack of critical thinking or a lack of knowledge of CFL history. It's been in much, much worse shape before this.

Owners love to cry poor, but the two teams that are public aren't. Most ownership groups are substantially stronger over the last 10 years - Doman, PKP, Stelco and others buying into Hamilton. Tragic that Edmonton's owner passed away, but that was also a strong step forward.

MLSE and CSEG should be strong owners, if they actually cared to put in the effort. I believe that they are the "foxes in the henhouse" driving whatever is the background play to the rule changes.

I'm not sure about the NFL - they aren't really gaining a 40 million market - most football / sports fans already watch NFL / pay for the TV channels that it's on. and Canadian TV contracts can't come close to the American ones - I don't think it would be a net gain for them to have to pay out a share to Canadian teams.

Individual owners could make money off NFL teams in Tor/Van/Mtl if there was no CFL, but then why would the other owners be going along with that?

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

And a tourist attraction? I've never heard of anyone going to Montreal to see that stadium, nor have I seen it in any pictures people post of the city.

I did exactly that when I was in Montreal. As in, I dedicated a day to learn the Metro, ride out to that stop, and walk around and take pictures / try to get into the building as much as I could. Read all the signs with the history of the project, sit around looking at it. That was my highlight for the day.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I have a sense that the whole idea of this is much more complicated than Skydome as there wasn't anything really structural to the building involved in removing that lower bowl and I bet that isn't the case in Montreal.

For those curious:

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by jonny24

The CFL owners certainly seem motivated for a big shakeup, but I have suspicions that it's chasing a T V or Private Equity payoff, and not because they are inherently unsustainable right now. I think they are playing up the "last gasp" to justify something else. Taking that at face value shows either a lack of critical thinking or a lack of knowledge of CFL history. It's been in much, much worse shape before this.

Owners love to cry poor, but the two teams that are public aren't. Most ownership groups are substantially stronger over the last 10 years - Doman, PKP, Stelco and others buying into Hamilton. Tragic that Edmonton's owner passed away, but that was also a strong step forward.

MLSE and CSEG should be strong owners, if they actually cared to put in the effort. I believe that they are the "foxes in the henhouse" driving whatever is the background play to the rule changes.

I'm not sure about the NFL - they aren't really gaining a 40 million market - most football / sports fans already watch NFL / pay for the TV channels that it's on. and Canadian TV contracts can't come close to the American ones - I don't think it would be a net gain for them to have to pay out a share to Canadian teams.

Individual owners could make money off NFL teams in Tor/Van/Mtl if there was no CFL, but then why would the other owners be going along with that?

Here's an idea for a big shakeup... every CFL team starts an Association Football (soccer) club in addition to their currently existing Canadian Football teams.



The best football stadium in Canada should be home to both a football and a soccer team called the Saskatchewan Roughriders.



If Real Madrid and FC Barcelona can also be basketball teams... then the Saskatchewan Roughriders and Winnipeg Blue Bombers could also be soccer teams!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

And a tourist attraction? I've never heard of anyone going to Montreal to see that stadium, nor have I seen it in any pictures people post of the city.

There used to be a really amazing, high quality picture of Olympic Stadium on Wikipedia from the 70 or 80's but I can't find it now.

Olympic Stadium is definitely a bit out of the way, but it is connected to the metro system, so it is quite easy to get there. It's an amazing structure, but it's too bad the roof has been such a mess for so long. I really think it has a future as a football/soccer stadium and venue for concerts, etc.

I don't really agree with Elly that growing artificial turf will be cost prohibitive, at least not forever. Soccer is getting much more popular in Canada by the year, and eventually, it will be legitimately popular enough that it would make financial sense to grow grass at Olympic Stadium using artificial grow lights and whatever other methods there are to install real turf in a stadium with a roof.

Montreal remains Canada's second largest city, and I don't think it's outrageous at all to invest money in a football/soccer stadium that could also be used for concerts and other events.

I think both Montreal's Olympic Stadium and Calgary's Saddledome are equally impressive structures that are iconic pieces of their city's skylines. I think it's sad that Calgary doesn't seem at all interesting in saving the Saddledome, when it's a skyline defining piece of architecture.



Imo, This is a view that deserves to be saved!

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Here's an idea for a big shakeup... every CFL team starts an Association Football (soccer) club in addition to their currently existing Canadian Football teams.


The best football stadium in Canada should be home to both a football and a soccer team called the Saskatchewan Roughriders.


If Real Madrid and FC Barcelona can also be basketball teams... then the Saskatchewan Roughriders and Winnipeg Blue Bombers could also be soccer teams!

The best football stadium should host the best kind of football - rugby

They already have uprights (on the goal line!) and 100m long fields.

Hamilton and Winnpieg do already runs soccer as well as Canadian Football (but I heard WFC is trying to get rid of the soccer team?)




All jokes aside, I've always said that the "big shakeup" should be the opposite of what they've done - turn away from the NFL style find a way to add constant play like rugby, but still having forward passes.

More types of footaall, not fewer.

[Coldrsx]

^^^The Riders Stadium is hands down the best in Canada in my humble opinion; it feels like a 60,000 seat US NFL stadium scaled down in the most fantastic of ways.

[Coldrsx]

[Calgarian]

The Big O is kinda cool looking, I'll definitely admit that. It's probably the first stadium I can think of that looked like a space ship. I still just can't wrap my head around how much it originally cost, how long it took to pay off, how little it's used and now they are throwing nearly a billion dollars at it again. It just screams sunk cost fallacy to me. But enough on it from me, my opinions are well documented to this point haha.

For the Saddledome, it really is sad that it won't exist anymore in a few years, definitely an iconic shape, especially with the new BMO Centre beside it. The problems are too numerous with it though, and the fixes are just too expensive. The roof is precast concrete panels suspended on steel cables, and the cables are themselves encased in concrete. They have listening devices on the roof to hear threads in the cables snapping, not sure how many they have heard but its enough that people are worried every time there is a heavy snowfall. They have had to cancel or postpone concerts because the big speaker and stage rigs that typically hang from the ceiling are too heavy with snow on the roof. The roof is also quite low, originally the intent was it would reduce the volume inside the building are reduce heating and cooling costs, but it also prevents big concerts from coming here (much to the delight of Edmonton). The last major obstacle is the exterior walls are quite narrow at the bottom, so with 4 teams in the building as tenants, they have lots of stuff stored outside in storage containers during the winter. It's just not a practical building for what it does anymore, so why spend a couple hundred million to repair it. Lots of people have come up with ideas for how to repurpose it, but nothing is really practical.

[cjones2451]

I don't really agree with Elly that growing artificial turf will be cost prohibitive, at least not forever. Soccer is getting much more popular in Canada by the year, and eventually, it will be legitimately popular enough that it would make financial sense to grow grass at Olympic Stadium using artificial grow lights and whatever other methods there are to install real turf in a stadium with a roof.

Sure it can be done, but when it is a multi purpose stadium and you have a "Taylor Swift Eras tour" come into town and have 3 or 4 shows, your turf is covered and crushed for over a week, which is not sustainable long term

If you look at stadia that are covered and have real grass they either have a retractable pitch of some sort, but the soccer tenant is the main contributor to the revenue for the stadium

[Coldrsx]

[elly63]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

I don't really agree with Elly that growing artificial turf will be cost prohibitive, at least not forever. Soccer is getting much more popular in Canada by the year, and eventually, it will be legitimately popular enough that it would make financial sense to grow grass at Olympic Stadium using artificial grow lights and whatever other methods there are to install real turf in a stadium with a roof.

Sure it can be done, but when it is a multi purpose stadium and you have a "Taylor Swift Eras tour" come into town and have 3 or 4 shows, your turf is covered and crushed for over a week, which is not sustainable long term

If you look at stadia that are covered and have real grass they either have a retractable pitch of some sort, but the soccer tenant is the main contributor to the revenue for the stadium

Edit I think I see what happened here, you were quoting ESJ and the quotes are missing

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Here's an idea for a big shakeup... every CFL team starts an Association Football (soccer) club in addition to their currently existing Canadian Football teams.

You are aware of the CFL owners contribution to the starting of the CPL? Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

The Riders Stadium is hands down the best in Canada in my humble opinion; it feels like a 60,000 seat US NFL stadium scaled down in the most fantastic of ways.

It is, but there are some who will argue for Winnipeg.

I have to say, I have a soft spot in my heart for Hamilton. I have a relative who was very involved in the construction (at the highest level) so I was keenly interested.

All through construction some people here trolled it as a US high school stadium etc. Pound for pound it is one of the best in the country as far as value is concerned.

We were very lucky in Canada that we went on that great stadium building/refurb binge when we did. I can't imagine the costs now, it's unfortunate that Olympic Stadium kept getting delayed but at least it's finally getting done before the costs get even worse.

But you have to love Hamilton coming in around budget (145 million) and with the signage and coordinated banners it has surrounding the inside of the stadium, it punches way above its weight. The building has also been a hit hosting several big events and great moments

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I don't really agree with Elly that growing artificial turf will be cost prohibitive, at least not forever. Soccer is getting much more popular in Canada by the year, and eventually, it will be legitimately popular enough that it would make financial sense to grow grass at Olympic Stadium using artificial grow lights and whatever other methods there are to install real turf in a stadium with a roof.

Turf is a living breathing thing, if you covered your face with a heavy sheet for a week you'd be dead too.

And because I said it is not practical now doesn't mean it isn't in the future. New and hardier types of turf will be created, technology will get better and cheaper, it's all possible, but not cost effective at the moment in our time and place. If this was Europe and we had their fanaticism for soccer it would be different (ie Frankfurt)

There is also this myth about soccer becoming more popular. I've been seeing that for decades. Soccer has always been popular in terms of participation, back when I was a kid everybody played sports through the school and except for hockey not in organized leagues so much. Soccer has been the highest participatory spot for a long time.

With HDTV and smartphones do we really expect stadium attendances to increase to a level we haven't seen since the 80s. MLS attendances are trending down in Canada not trending up. That isn't meant as a shot or that the sport is unpopular or dying.

When I say trending I mean towards or away from what has been the historical peak. There is a reason Saputo and BMO Fields are the size they are. They are right sized.

A few years ago at their peak TFC was getting crowds around 27/28k now its around 20/21k.

The CFL is the same way. At its peak Edmonton was drawing over 50k and Montreal 60k, those days are gone.

MLS has been around 20 years and suddenly they're going to attract 40k crowds in Canada, highly unlikely. Even before the era of streaming MLS TV ratings were terrible.

Again this isn't an indictment of soccer, it's reality. This is North America we don't consume sports the same way as they do in Europe or the rest of the world. I'm the biggest poster and Canadian soccer booster in the soccer thread but I'm realistic. from viewing these things for decades. Are people going to become more socialized all of a sudden and flock to sporting events more than they have previously. The pandemic and smartphones changed us.

[EpicPonyTime]

I am surprised yet not surprised that the Riders haven’t shown interest in a CPL team in Regina. They’re really the only other professional tenant that could use Mosaic but the turf isn’t ideal for soccer and Valour has proven a half assed effort in a CFL stadium doesn’t cut the mustard.

Still a better option than Saskatoon and whatever its soccer stadium proposal was a few years back, though.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I am surprised yet not surprised that the Riders haven’t shown interest in a CPL team in Regina. They’re really the only other professional tenant that could use Mosaic but the turf isn’t ideal for soccer and Valour has proven a half assed effort in a CFL stadium doesn’t cut the mustard.

Still a better option than Saskatoon and whatever its soccer stadium proposal was a few years back, though.

Riders CEO Craig Reynolds when speaking after the CFL rules announcement, said the team's preference (subject to discussion with the city) is that the new field will no longer have inlaid lines.

By the start of next year that artificial turf will be 10 years old. They are warrantied for 10-12 years and most stadiums replace them at 8 years when usually a big enough event comes around to warrant the change. So Mosaic will likely see a change in the next year or two (same as Montreal which is even older).

As I've posted before the stadiums in Canada thankfully do not cheapen out on their artificial turf and usually get the state of the art. Calgary replaced their AT this year with the same AT Winnipeg replaced theirs with last year: FieldTurf Vertex Core 1, wlth CoolPlay TPE infill, FIFA Quality Pro certified.

Reynolds stated the first lined AT in Mosaic was specifically a business decision and now the case can be made for having an unlined field.

The Winnipeg, Hamilton and Ottawa CPL teams all play in CFL stadiums. Winnipeg is 10k seats bigger than the other two which depending on the design (or so I am told by people who have been there) can make a difference in how empty or full the stadium feels.

Ottawa and Hamilton are two of the three top teams in the CPL this year.

Speaking of possible other tenants at Mosaic, one of the reasons for the Calgary replacement was McMahon Stadium being the home to Calgary's new NSL franchise. I am sure the barrier to entry for that league would be lower than the CPL. Perhaps someone is looking at that for Regina

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The Big Owe is a waste of money, I've said it far more than 3 times, as have many others. And a tourist attraction? I've never heard of anyone going to Montreal to see that stadium, nor have I seen it in any pictures people post of the city.

Very few go to Olympic Park for the stadium. They go for the Biodome, the Planetarium and other venues, but there's no denying the impact seeing the stadium has coming out from the Metro Station. It's quite the site to behold.