Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[cjones2451]

Maybe Calgary or Halifax can buy a "used" 2022 stadium from Qatar?

http://stadiumdb.com/news/2017/11/ne...ntable_stadium

[elly63]

Blast from the past

30k stadium (some places it says 35k) to be built for 6 million. Times sure have changed.

[esquire]

^ It'll never get cheaper than it is today... in another 35 that 30,000 seat stadium might cost $5 billion.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It'll never get cheaper than it is today... in another 35 that 30,000 seat stadium might cost $5 billion.

No doubt true but we'd need to know how much the cost of stadiums past and future represents in today's dollars.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

There is no way the Halifax stadium would get built without a substantial public contribution. But what about something along the lines of 1/3 government funding, 1/3 team contribution, 1/3 ticket levy?

For a somewhat modest stadium (basically the first phase of something that could eventually be expanded), we wouldn't be talking an exorbitant amount of money. Based on other recent stadium projects, $200 million would probably be more than enough to get the job done.

I don't think there is anyway a private individual/s with spend $70 million on a CFL Stadium, especially in an unproven market. Personally, I think the extent of private contributions would be a ticket tax and maybe a few million for team lockers and facilities at the stadium.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

I don't think there is anyway a private individual/s with spend $70 million on a CFL Stadium, especially in an unproven market. Personally, I think the extent of private contributions would be a ticket tax and maybe a few million for team lockers and facilities at the stadium.

I have a feeling this Halifax group will be looking for 100% funding from the public and are carefully drawing out a plan to make that seem like it makes sense. I don't have much confidence in this

The days of privately built sports venues are over. Even if it's profitable to build it privately it will never happen And you can thank Edmonton and Quebec city for killing that dream When it comes to Arenas. I truly believe True North was the last private company to pay such a large % of an arena build and that's only because Bell MTS Place came in at a price tag of 133M so 100M of your own money doesn't seem that terrible. Arenas aren't 160M-250M dollars anymore like they were in the 90's early 2000's. You're not building an arena for less than 450M in western Canada.

I can kind of understand why the flames are so hesitant to offer up any cash to the project when they see whats happening around Canada.

Quebecor paid $33 million up front for naming rights (Doubles with NHL team), plus $3.1M in Anual rent (Increases dependent on NHL team)

True North has up to 100M financed on the MTS centre over lets say...30 years? I'm assuming they financed it anyway, True north was very much in it's infancy at that time I highly doubt the company had any where close to 100M in capital to invest. But they keep 100% of all profit. Actually with the naming rights revenue combined with the annual money from the city to maintain and upgrade it ($7.65-million this year) plus the moxie's rent, In theory The MTSC is paying for itself/profitable before they even sell at ticket.

Oilers paid less than 23M upfront and are paying $137.81 million a lease over 35 years (3.8M annually) which is covered by the naming rights revenue which goes to kats group. Ticket surcharge is neutral money in my mind. I don't see it as a contribution from the Oilers.

I can see why the flames group is having a hard time swallowing anything less than a free Arena when your prairie counterparts are making money on the terms of their arenas deals before they even wake up in the morning. Why should you have any expenses when the public can take on those costs? Unfortunately I don't think the flames will see the same fate

[esquire]

^ Rightly or wrongly, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Quebec are perceived as B markets so it's easy to play that arena extortion game. TNSE's mistake was building when they did... they built at a time when utterly no one thought the NHL would be coming back. MTS Centre was sold as a spectacular AHL rink rather than as a potential NHL venue. Had they waited another 5 years they probably could have built a more opulent arena while persuading the government to take on a larger overall share of the costs along the same lines as in Edmonton... fortunately for taxpayers that didn't happen.

Calgary can't really be held hostage the same way because no one doubts it's a supremely lucrative hockey market. The fact that a city as small as Winnipeg managed to get a team back tells you that no one in Calgary is worried about losing the NHL for good, even if the Flames acted on their implied threat to move to Houston or wherever.

Maybe 20 years ago that manoeuvre might have worked in Calgary, but it's just too damn big now.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Calgary can't really be held hostage the same way because no one doubts it's a supremely lucrative hockey market. The fact that a city as small as Winnipeg managed to get a team back tells you that no one in Calgary is worried about losing the NHL for good, even if the Flames acted on their implied threat to move to Houston or wherever.

You're right, of course, but the threat was only implied because they happened to make a fuss over the arena the day after Seattle announced plans to renovate their arena and let the public connect the dots on their own. It was scummy to say the least.

I know you weren't going for sheer accuracy but Houston hasn't been angling for a relocation in the past few weeks, and it's not in the NHL's interest to be relocating teams anyway. Flames aren't going anywhere and the Flames ownership can go pound sand if they expect government to pay for a new arena.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I know you weren't going for sheer accuracy but Houston hasn't been angling for a relocation in the past few weeks, and it's not in the NHL's interest to be relocating teams anyway. Flames aren't going anywhere and the Flames ownership can go pound sand if they expect government to pay for a new arena.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/h...na-relocation/

The NHL clearly wants to turn up the heat on markets that won't cave to the demands of owners.

I think it's a hollow threat because I think we're past the point of Canadian markets being threatened by sunbelt cities... we all know that a team in Houston would be playing in front of thousands of empty seats a night by season 3.

[The Fisher Account]

NHL Relocation fee - $80-100M
NHL Expansion fee - $500M+

Wonder which one the NHL would prefer?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

NHL Relocation fee - $80-100M
NHL Expansion fee - $500M+

Wonder which one the NHL would prefer?

Why would the NHL screw over the ownership group in Calgary by shutting the door on relocation?

Losing that leverage over governments over the long term is a bigger hit to them than losing expansion fees one time. For instance, Edmonton became much more pliant once Katz's people started taking trips to Hamilton, or was it Quebec?

[king10]

Originally Posted by esquire

There is no way the Halifax stadium would get built without a substantial public contribution. But what about something along the lines of 1/3 government funding, 1/3 team contribution, 1/3 ticket levy?

For a somewhat modest stadium (basically the first phase of something that could eventually be expanded), we wouldn't be talking an exorbitant amount of money. Based on other recent stadium projects, $200 million would probably be more than enough to get the job done.

$200M is even high. Tim Hortons Field was $150M.

heck you could build something for $100M to get the job done. It would be similar to BMO when it first opened in 2007 which today would have cost$73M adjusted for inflation.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I was thinking something along the lines of THF. That would be more than enough for Halifax. I plucked $200 million out of the air because I always seem to be shocked by project cost inflation.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by king10

$200M is even high. Tim Hortons Field was $150M.

heck you could build something for $100M to get the job done. It would be similar to BMO when it first opened in 2007 which today would have cost$73M adjusted for inflation.

A few years ago, Halifax's city council actually did promise funding for a portion of a 15,000 seat or so stadium for the FIFA Women's World Cup. That stadium was never built (maybe partly because the design would not have been useful for the CFL), but the budget was something like $68M.

As I've said before it is obvious that if a stadium happens in Halifax it will be partly or entirely publicly funded. And it is obvious to me that the city will fund it. It's just not something a person like the mayor would start out saying because of the optics and politics. For now if he talks about the CFL he can build excitement about the project. If he talks about funding he will draw all the anti-cost people out of the woodwork before there are even any numbers to discuss.

Another aspect of this is that HRM, the municipality, is large and has a sizeable budget and low debt. It is in way better financial shape to build an arena than many major American cities. HRM is in the same ballpark population-wise as US municipalities like Minneapolis and Cleveland, and probably has a similar tax base.

[isaidso]

How does corporate sponsorship factor into financing a stadium? There are a few deep pocketed Maritime firms that might be interested. McCain, Irving Oil, Emera ....

[osmo]

NHL will avoid relocation unless it has to.

Carolina is a problem child with an owner that wants out and nobody locally wanting anything to do with the team.

Houston and/or Quebec City provide landing spots for Carolina if that situation blows up.

Calgary isn't going anywhere. The owners will sell before they ever move the team.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by isaidso

How does corporate sponsorship factor into financing a stadium? There are a few deep pocketed Maritime firms that might be interested. McCain, Irving Oil, Emera ....

Safe to say that it's part of the overall financing formula, but how much exactly is hard to say given the secrecy that surrounds the subject at least in the CFL. Given how high the bar has been raised by Scotiabank in Toronto, I would think a CFL stadium would be worth at least a million, maybe a couple million a year these days. If a Halifax team could sell naming rights for, say, $25 million for 15 years, that would be a decent chunk of the stadium bill right there.

I would think the pool of interested rights-buyers wouldn't be limited to regional companies... many national companies looking to raise their profile could conceivably be interested, like telcos, banks, airlines, etc.

[elly63]

Optimism builds for potential CFL expansion to Halifax
Bruce Garrioch Ottawa Sun November 26, 2017

The Canadian Football League could be ready to go coast-to-coast.

While it’s a long way from becoming reality because a stadium with seating for between 20,000 and 25,000 spectators has to be built, the CFL’s board of governors received an update from commissioner Randy Ambrosie on possible expansion to Halifax during a weekend meeting in Ottawa, and there was optimism.

A group led by former Arizona Coyotes’ owners Anthony Leblanc, an Ottawa resident, and Gary Drummond has held discussions with CFL officials and Halifax mayor Mike Savage about expansion to the Nova Scotia capital for the 2020 campaign, but all parties would have to come to agreement on building a stadium.

Yes, we’ve heard this before, but this time the idea of the Atlantic Schooners seems a little more real.

“This idea didn’t just come out of nowhere. It’s been evolving,” Ottawa Sports & Entertainment Group president Jeff Hunt said Sunday. “A lot of the pieces are in place for this Halifax bid to succeed.

“They’ve got a very credible ownership group. I think you’ve got government there that wants to see this happen, so I think the pieces are there to finally see a team in Halifax and finally see a 10th team in the CFL, which would be outstanding.”

Hunt said Savage visited Ottawa two years ago to look at what OSEG did at Lansdowne Park. The Redblacks franchise has become a model for what other teams might want to do if they’re interested in building a new stadium.

OSEG got its idea from Los Angeles and the L.A. Live development near the Staples Center, which has become a destination every night of the week and not just when there are events. That atmosphere also exists in Ottawa.

OSEG partner John Ruddy spent Grey Cup weekend with Leblanc and Drummond, giving them insight on what it would take.

“When the mayor of Halifax came up to Ottawa, I hosted him, and they were looking at Ottawa as the inspiration for what could be in Halifax,” Hunt said. “The owners that are looking to bring a team to Halifax are all here at the Grey Cup.

“I know John Ruddy has been extremely involved with the Halifax group in going down, visiting with them and trying to share with them what we’ve done. There’s no doubt that this whole Lansdowne development model is something everybody is looking at it as far as a model. It’s such a unique experience for fans on a day-to-day basis. There’s such a buzz here.”

Hunt added: “We don’t use Lansdowne Live much anymore, but that name invokes energy and there’s so much energy here. Even when you go downtown on Tuesday night, there’s restaurants and bars at Lansdowne that are packed.”

[240glt]

In Vernon BC, the downtown Civic Arena will close after 80 years.

http://www.1075kiss.com/2017/12/01/o...r-civic-arena/

What's nice is that the city is having discussions about what to do wth the land, the arena will be tor down and hopefully the land will be redeveloped. The area around the Civic is a little grungy so it'll be nice to see some new development in there

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

The NHL clearly wants to turn up the heat on markets that won't cave to the demands of owners.

People in Calgary will go to NHL games regardless of what NHL brass does so why not? If people will withstand lockouts and raised prices they're free to do as they wish until the market cannot bare it.

Originally Posted by osmo

NHL will avoid relocation unless it has to.

It's in the NHL's best interest to keep all of its franchises where they currently are.

Originally Posted by osmo

Carolina is a problem child with an owner that wants out and nobody locally wanting anything to do with the team.

There may be a buyer interested in purchasing the Hurricanes. Part of the issue was Karmanos wanting to sell the team but keep his majority stake, which doesn't make any sense for someone looking to take over IMO. They've since relaxed on that stance.

Originally Posted by osmo

Houston and/or Quebec City provide landing spots for Carolina if that situation blows up.

Houston would be more likely but I still doubt the Hurricanes move. In saying that, Houston is likely a step up from Raleigh in terms of national TV deals and sponsorship, but the sponsorship and corporate presence of North Carolina should never be overlooked.

Originally Posted by osmo

Calgary isn't going anywhere. The owners will sell before they ever move the team.

Yep.

Originally Posted by esquire

I would think the pool of interested rights-buyers wouldn't be limited to regional companies... many national companies looking to raise their profile could conceivably be interested, like telcos, banks, airlines, etc.

With Scotiabank recently taking the naming rights for the Metro Centre it wouldn't surprise me to see a national brand roll in and assume the rights for the stadium, too. TD Bank, RBC, Canadian Tire etc. Depends on how feisty Sobeys/Irving would want to get with naming rights for an Atlantic Canadian stadium. So far naming rights haven't really been a hot commodity in most cities in Atlantic Canada. We'll firstly see how the naming rights, if any, roll out for the new arena in Moncton.