Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Precambrian]

What Halifax needs is some good football fans in council. Hopefully Moncton's success will give Halifax a wake up call.

[Jstaleness]

Moncton getting a CFL team before Halifax really scares me. If it turned out to be a complete failure then I guess it would save Halifax from the embarrassment. I see CFL here on the east doing very well, as it would be the only true National League Sport available.

[fenwick16]

Thanks for the comments halifaxboyns. I have to cut and paste to finish the other side which will be fairly quick. The 30,000 capacity is based on both sides being the same. Getting one side complete takes many hours of work (mainly just trying to decide where to put the seats so that the view lines will be acceptable). Actually I have been working on this one for about 3 weeks now in my spare time after work.

I have never been a fan of the Shannon Park site. Even a report that analyzed the Commonwealth Games bid indicated that it was a less than ideal location. In order for a stadium to succeed, it will have to maximize the number of people going to concerts and sports events. Since not many university students have cars, I don't think a Shannon Park site will attract many students. I have always felt that the Halifax Peninsula would be the best location for a stadium where it can draw from the universities and have good transit connections. I would really like to see a stadium north of the Halifax forum next to the Superstore, but then part of the DND scrap yard would have to be included. That location has lots of parking in the area and has good transit connections. (However, I realize that it might never be available). If there is nothing on the peninsula then the Halifax Mainland Commons would be an option.

These models are just for fun, but they indicate that there is room next to the Superstore. I am trying to make it an economical design so I am simulating precast panels on the exterior (by mixing a few different basic designs).

[halifaxboyns]

When I was looking at Shannon Park; I saw it there as mainly for the sake of its a big piece of land that could easily be access if a high speed ferry and improved bus network was developed from Highfield. So from the perspective of students and people without cars; I could only see it going in Shannon Park if a high speed ferry and appropriate bus network were built before the stadium became operational (to support fans getting there).

Willow park isn't without its merits but I'm not sure what the long term plans are for the site. It has been shrinking over the years though from what it used to be. When the rail spur was sold off and shut down; a lot of the 'back' portion of Willow Park was sold off as commercial land and is now a bunch of car dealers along Kempt Road. That's reduced the size of Willow Park to roughly half of what it was when I was growing up. That's turned into a rather nice auto oriented commercial corridor - so putting together all that land would be quite difficult.

Another option could be the forum site and the postal sorting facility. I have a strong feeling that that facility is bursting at the seems as HRM continues to grow and they will need a new one soon; so if they were to leave - a redevelopment of the forum site and that location could be an option. However, I'm more of the feeling that this area could turn into a rather nice pocket of density if redeveloped nicely with class B office towers and lots of residential (adding to a potential station if an LRT or subway system were considered).

Windsor Park and the RCMP site might also be a location of interest as well; but right now the main routes serving that area are the 1, 80, 81 and a number of express buses.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Thanks for the comments halifaxboyns. I have to cut and paste to finish the other side which will be fairly quick. The 30,000 capacity is based on both sides being the same. Getting one side complete takes many hours of work (mainly just trying to decide where to put the seats so that the view lines will be acceptable). Actually I have been working on this one for about 3 weeks now in my spare time after work.

I have never been a fan of the Shannon Park site. Even a report that analyzed the Commonwealth Games bid indicated that it was a less than ideal location. In order for a stadium to succeed, it will have to maximize the number of people going to concerts and sports events. Since not many university students have cars, I don't think a Shannon Park site will attract many students. I have always felt that the Halifax Peninsula would be the best location for a stadium where it can draw from the universities and have good transit connections. I would really like to see a stadium north of the Halifax forum next to the Superstore, but then part of the DND scrap yard would have to be included. That location has lots of parking in the area and has good transit connections. (However, I realize that it might never be available). If there is nothing on the peninsula then the Halifax Mainland Commons would be an option.

I am trying to come up with an exterior right now. So far I have come up with an old warehouse look These models are just for fun, but they indicate that there is room next to the Superstore. I am trying to make it an economical design so I am simulating precast panels on the exterior (by mixing a few different basic designs).

Great work, keep it up! This is sort of what I imagined myself.

I wonder if Fares would design a stadium for a site and potentially get behind its development... Imagine they dug down the depth of the Trillium site to create the sunken bowl!

[halifaxboyns]

It dawned on me after I posted my comment - there is at least 2 councillors that would probably support a football team.

The most obvious one; being Sue Uteck. Considering her late husband coached the SMU football team; something tells me she would be behind getting a CFL team here in a heart beat. And if she was on the fence; i'm sure she could be convinced if maybe the stadium was named after her late husband? I'd do that anyway; since he was a key figure in the SMU team's success (if SMU doesn't name their stadium after him first).

Then I suspect Dawn Sloane would be the other. I say that because she goes to pretty much every major event that happens in the city: parades, concerts at the commons, festivals - you name it; she posts pictures about it on her facebook (it's a great way for me to see home but not have to fly back lol).

Regardless of what you may think of how they've dealt with development in the downtown or other issues; I'm willing to put money on the table they would probably be strong supporters of a football team. Dawn is always talking about complete communities (I think she really latched onto that idea from the regional plan; which is good) and so she's a strong believer in creating more festivals, activities and parades. Certainly a football team is a good component to attracting people to wherever the stadium is.

I'm not sure about the rest; but if Peter Kelly wants votes; he'd be behind it too. I think others on council might be; but only if the stadium were built in their districts - so you might have to get over the whole locational bias ('I want it in my district') to try to get the stadium. It's doable and HRM can certainly recover from what appears to be a setback with Moncton getting organized; if all the pieces fall together quickly. But I think everyone will agree that the time to act is now.

This would also be a good way to attract soccer functions, assuming that the field would be built to do both football and soccer (I'm not sure if that's possible). And certainly as the population gets up there; if the economic conditions are right; I suspect a replacement for the metro centre would be needed if conditions were right to try to get a franchise team for the NHL. Granted, that may be far off (around the 700,000 mark) which might be beyond my lifetime. But if something happens that the economic conditions were right and NS gets a huge boom (one can dream) - it may be sooner!

[fenwick16]

I changed the exterior to make it a bit more modern and added the other sideline seats (this would be about 30,000 seats). The previous exterior ended up looking like a townhouse development. The lower bowl is sunken by 21 feet only.

For now, drawing 3D models is a way to imagine a stadium in the Halifax area; hopefully Halifax will have a real stadium soon.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Great work, keep it up! This is sort of what I imagined myself.

I wonder if Fares would design a stadium for a site and potentially get behind its development... Imagine they dug down the depth of the Trillium site to create the sunken bowl!

Thanks for humoring me worldlyhaligonian, but I couldn't stand that exterior even myself. So I deleted the evidence (it should be gone soon).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

When I was looking at Shannon Park; I saw it there as mainly for the sake of its a big piece of land that could easily be access if a high speed ferry and improved bus network was developed from Highfield. So from the perspective of students and people without cars; I could only see it going in Shannon Park if a high speed ferry and appropriate bus network were built before the stadium became operational (to support fans getting there).

Willow park isn't without its merits but I'm not sure what the long term plans are for the site. It has been shrinking over the years though from what it used to be. When the rail spur was sold off and shut down; a lot of the 'back' portion of Willow Park was sold off as commercial land and is now a bunch of car dealers along Kempt Road. That's reduced the size of Willow Park to roughly half of what it was when I was growing up. That's turned into a rather nice auto oriented commercial corridor - so putting together all that land would be quite difficult.

Another option could be the forum site and the postal sorting facility. I have a strong feeling that that facility is bursting at the seems as HRM continues to grow and they will need a new one soon; so if they were to leave - a redevelopment of the forum site and that location could be an option. However, I'm more of the feeling that this area could turn into a rather nice pocket of density if redeveloped nicely with class B office towers and lots of residential (adding to a potential station if an LRT or subway system were considered).

Windsor Park and the RCMP site might also be a location of interest as well; but right now the main routes serving that area are the 1, 80, 81 and a number of express buses.

I am only speaking as a sports fan. Many suburban stadiums have been abandoned in favour of sites close to the downtown area. The reason isn't just transit, but as with the Metro Centre and Convention Centre, a stadium will attract people to the downtown. However, I would be happy to see a stadium built at Shannon Park, even though I am afraid that it might turn out to be a mistake.

PS: The Canada Post site would be a good location, but I don't think that the Halifax Forum will be torn down since it contains two rinks and the city needs the ice surfaces. Another possible location is where the unused tracks are located near the Via station (a warehouse is currently there) - these tracks at one time serviced the warehouses that are now Pier 21, the Cunard Centre, NSCAD and farmer's market.

I actually traveled to Halifax municipal Hall in January 2010 and met with Councillors Sloane, Blumenthal, Hendsbee and Watts. Mainly, I had hoped that the HRM would set up and support a building fund that people across Canada could contribute to (similar to the way universities raise money for buildings). However, nothing has happened. I think that the Mayor will be the one who will have to actively promote and champion a stadium or nothing will happen. Many councillors and the Mayor have stated that Halifax will require a large sports event in order to build a stadium - that is reasonable, I just hope that the municipality is actively looking for large sports events. Maybe this is part of Scott Ferguson's function (CEO of Trade Centre Limited)?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

Moncton getting a CFL team before Halifax really scares me. If it turned out to be a complete failure then I guess it would save Halifax from the embarrassment. I see CFL here on the east doing very well, as it would be the only true National League Sport available.

Pro football should do very well in the Maritimes, but I see Moncton getting a team before Halifax as preferable if you take a long term strategic view. Eventually, both Nova Scotia and New Brunswick should be able to support a CFL team. If Saskatchewan can do it, so can these 2 provinces. A Maritime rivalry is important though.

If Halifax came first, Moncton would probably have to wait decades to get their team. If Moncton came first, a Halifax team wouldn't have to wait that long. Halifax is double the size of Regina, a football hotbed already, and would benefit the Moncton franchise.

Put the 1st Maritime team in Moncton. They've out maneuvered Halifax, deserve the prize, and it wouldn't mean the end of the Halifax's CFL aspirations. Halifax/Nova Scotia won't be denied.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The lower bowl is sunken by 21 feet only.

How many rows in that sunken lower bowl? What's the optimal gradient used for football stands?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

How many rows in that sunken lower bowl? What's the optimal gradient used for football stands?

16 rows in the lower bowl at 1 foot rise per row in the lower sunken bowl. The first row is 5 feet above field level (to see over players heads) - however in the case of a Grey Cup then about 5 rows of field level seating could be added to increase capacity. The row width throughout the 3D model is 32 inches (with folding seats, this would give safe and easy access to and from the seats from the aisles). At the top of the lower bowl there would be room for wheelchair locations and luxury boxes (the top one or two rows would be required for seating in the luxury boxes - having them at the street level concourse means that wheelchair access ramps are not required to the top of the stadium which at the required 1" rise per foot would become very long). I have tried models with more rows in the lower bowl, and this might be ok if there is suitable stadium width for the chosen location, but if stadium width is a factor then having more rows in the lower bowl will take away from the space in the corridors where washrooms and concessions will be required.

In the second and third tiers, the rise per row is 15.5" which is adequate for viewing (all parts of the field are unobstructed from all seats - I checked by viewing from various locations in the 3D model) and the width is again 32" (this will leave lots of legs room). I considered having a greater rise in the third tier but found that it was not required. The reason for 15.5" maximum rise is that it means that there can be just one additional step (15.5"/2 = 7.75" rise per step which is the maximum allowed by the Ontario Building Code which I think is also used in Nova Scotia). If a greater rise is used then two additional steps per row would be required. Also, some people don't like extremely steep rises.

I have tried to stick to building codes that I know of (I am not in the construction industry, but use a few of the building codes for products that we manufacture - firestop products).

Although, these are relatively simply models, I have tried to make them progressively more realistic. I have no false notion that my simply stadium models will ever be built in Halifax (any stadium would make me happy). However, I enjoy doing the 3D models and since I am doing it, I want to research the various factors involved. Currently I am adding access stairs to the top of the stadium and will eventually add individual seats (I can do it relatively quickly by using the SketchUp array function). I will also add washrooms and concession spaces. The current model is a composite of the literally hundreds of stadiums that I have looked at on the internet over the past year. Yes, this has become an obsession to me! But it is a fun hobby.

Sorry for the rambling answer. I get excited about stadium details. I have added some details. The stairs were taken from a model of the Stadion Salzburg that I modified to fit this 3D model (the author is listed as Google 3D Warehouse - the author is listed as unknown). I also used the roof supports from a model of the New Cardiff City Stadium by dizzyHARSH.
I have to add some finishing details to make it more realistic (such as support beams, seats, aisles, more stairways, etc.).

[isaidso]

Not to worry, I'm actually very interested in what you're doing. It's a bit of a hobby for me too, but I just doodle on scrap paper. I have no idea how to navigate SketchUp, but did down load it a while ago.

An increase in gradient from lower to upper bowls is done so that fans higher up are closer to the field than they would be if the grade was kept the same, right? I do like that feature, but sometimes find that lower bowls have too slight of a gradient, while upper bowls are too steep. Skydome in Toronto is a good example of that. Have you been there for football/baseball?

I'm a football fan foremost, so I do look at design from the perspective of a football fan. I look at features that enhance the football experience (horseshoe or full bowls), and features that detract from it (running tracks and awkward sight lines).

Another issue that's very important from a CFL perspective is optics. The league suffers from image problems so it's very important to make a stadium look and feel like a major league stadium. How does one do that when designing a 30,000 seat stadium as opposed to a 70,000 seat stadium? There are lots of tricks.

The West Harbour proposal in Hamilton incorporates many of the design features that make it look like a big city stadium even though it's a 22,000-44,000 seat facility. Retractable stands, full bowl, over sized industrial looking trusses, and massive structures anchoring on the corners are the major features that they've made excellent use of.

Another design that CFL stadia needs to accommodate is expandable capacity. End zones are an obvious add on, but what about building stadia that was designed for easy add on of stands? The best solution I've come up with is a sunken bowl of 20,000-30,000 not including end zone seating.

If one builds the entire bowl, but only installs seating on the sides, the bowl can easily be expanded from 30,000 to say 37,000 as a horseshoe, or 44,000 as a full bowl. Concourses at each end add awesome viewing platforms for fans circulating around the building.

20, 30, 40, 50 years down the road a sunken bowl also allows for the easy expansion of the stadium if enough room is left on all sides. Simply build a 15,000 seat grand stand on one side. If a stadium is designed with this in mind from the beginning, a 2nd tier could be added almost as a separate structure altogether.

Following this staged expansion, one could add an identical tier to the other side. This way, a stadium can grow with fan support and the growth of the city/province it serves. 100 year old stadiums? Lambeau Field in Green Bay is very old, and it started off much this way. It's just one tier though.

Stadium capacity progression:

30,000 (sunken bowl with 15,000 on each side)
37,000 (add 7,000 to one end zone to make a horseshoe)
44,000 (add 7,000 to the other end zone to make a bowl)
59,000 (add a 2nd tier of 15,000 seats to one side built at grade)
74,000 (add an identical 2nd tier to the other side also built at grade)
82,000 (add 8,000 to one end zone on 2nd tier to make a horseshoe built at grade)
90,000 (add 8,000 to the other end zone on 2nd tier to make a bowl built at grade)


As you can see, these later stages may never come to be, but at least one has planned ahead and the facility's capacity isn't bound by its design. Who knows, in 2110 Halifax may need a 90,000 seat football stadium!

Roofing solutions are always the tricky part in my opinion. I haven't come up with one I completely like, but I am partial to retractable roofs shaped like inverted half pipes on parallel runners.

[fenwick16]

I like a phased approach to building a stadium as you suggest (although my ideal is not as ambiguous as yours). A stadium could start just as the lower sunken bowl. Many new stadiums (stadia) are designed with a sunken lower bowl not only for cost but also convenience since people enter the stadium at a mid-stadium height. If the first phase is the lower sunken bowl then it can be relatively cheap to build since access ramps/stairways are not required and stadium external walls are not required. In my opinion, this is a good place for Halifax to start. It also has big benefits if the site selected is on a hill since the stadium can be built into the incline. Several older US university stadiums are built using the gound as part of the stadium to keep cost down (Yale Bowl, Rose Bowl and several others).

I have been to the Skydome for baseball several times but never for football (I might take in a game this year, and maybe I will go to see Ivor Wynne Stadium while it still exists). The Skydome illustrates the benefit of increasing the viewing angle as a Stadium is built vertically. The distance from the stadium will depend on the row width and also row riser height as you stated (the hypotenuse is the square root of the square of the two sides). So a steeper viewing angle will actually result in being further from the field if the seats are all built on the same plane, however, if some of the upper levels over-hang the bottom levels then the stadium will become more compact (for example if there are 50 rows from field level to the top of the stadium but 15 of the rows over-hang then effectively the top row is only 50 - 15 = 35 rows from the field). However, in such a vertical design the upper levels must have a steeper angle in order to see the entire field. A good hockey example is the Buffalo Auditorium. It was a very compact design with several levels and some over-hung the lower levels. The new HSBC arena in Buffalo doesn't have any overhangs and the result is a more spacious design (but the top row is further from the ice - in my opinion the old Buffalo Auditorium was a more intimate design for hockey). In the current 3D model I took this into account since it results in more seating rows per overall stadium width while requiring a relatively short roof overhang to cover all the seats.

As a stadium is built vertically such as the Skydome, there is the potential to have obstructed views if the viewing angle doesn't allow spectators to see the entire field. In some parts of the Skydome stadium the field is too close to the seats and thus some of the upper levels effectively becomes their own obstruction to seeing the edges of the field (you can see this if you check Blue Jay tickets, which has an interactive viewing feature, sections 539 and 509 and the sections to the right and left - http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/tor/...ng_pricing.jsp ). However, most of the seats at the Skydome are unobstructed and it is great for baseball.

A book that I really enjoyed reading was "Stadia - A Design and Development Guide" by Geraint John, Rod Sheard & Ben Vickery which I bought from Amazon.com.

I like the West Harbour proposal for Hamilton. This is a stadium design that I would wish for Halifax if cost were not a factor.

[halifaxboyns]

An approach that allows expansion as time passes is an excellent way to go and I think part of what the author of the recent editorial in the Herald (from the SGR Business associate was it?) was trying to point out in terms of the existing WTCC. If we don't plan the buildings to be expandable - what's the point?

One thing which may influence the design of the building too might be location and if there is a local context. For example, if its located next to the Forum - one consideration might be to try to design the exterior to compliment the brick design of the forum. I believe I posted a picture of an enclosed Hockey arena that had a brick finish - so something along that line from a materials perspective.

The same might be true if this was located next to buildings of more modern design (steel and glass) - those could be included.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

Like this?

Sorry, just saw the retractable part... of course this isn't what you mean.

No problem. That same shape, but just one massive one that slides over the entire stadium.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

IMO, Empire Fields looks awesome on TV.

Agree. I'd propose something exactly of that scale for Halifax, but with the whole thing a sunken bowl.

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

The current economics of the CFL is built around 25,000 seat stadiums.

Out West, the stadiums are bigger, but Halifax would be the 2nd smallest CFL market and IMO a Halifax stadium should be on the lower end of CFL capacities. Long term expansion of the stadium is someone else's problem. But even if a 25,000 seat bowl is built, you can always expand up.

Exactly! Halifax should aim for 25,000-28,000 seats, nothing larger. The reason I'm such a big proponent of sunken bowls is precisely that a large capacity (as you mentioned) is only needed once in a blue moon. A sunken bowl allows for temporary stands to be built all around it, then taken down the next day.

I disagree that long term expansion is someone else's problem though. It's smarter to design so that the needs of a city can be met 10, 20, 30 years down the road. If you take the attitude that it's someone else's problem you'll end up with another BMO Field. It's already too small because they didn't think about long term expansion. The west stands were built right up against the lot line. To expand it, you'd have to demolish the whole stadium.

Really dumb! If they had some foresight/common sense, they would have built their 20,000 seat stadium with space on both sides so that extra decks can be added down the road. They had tons of space to do that. I couldn't believe it when I saw the proposed configuration for their lot. I'll say it again: really dumb!

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

I think that the $18 seats should be in the end zone.

So do I.

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

But I also think that for Halifax, (where nobody knows if a CFL franchise is viable) a $30 million project is more likely than $120 million project.

IMO we need to use a Moncton approach to getting a stadium built.

I don't think $120 million on a stadium is outlandish for a city the size of Halifax. Halifax has 400,000 people, it's the largest city in Atlantic Canada by a wide margin, and football is hardly a foreign concept to this part of the country.

Saint Mary's football is arguably the most important sports team in the province.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I have been to the Skydome for baseball several times but never for football (I might take in a game this year, and maybe I will go to see Ivor Wynne Stadium while it still exists).

Skydome is a decent baseball venue, but the worst football stadium I've ever been to. You can't see the corners of the end zones from some seats, the lower bowl isn't steep enough, and you're viewing the field at a really bizarre angle. You almost feel like you're at a shopping mall. The looks like a side show rather than the feature event.

Ivor Wynne is dilapidated, but offers the best sight lines I've ever experienced for football. The stands are about as close to the field as you can get without creating a safety hazard for players.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The Skydome illustrates the benefit of increasing the viewing angle as a Stadium is built vertically. The distance from the stadium will depend on the row width and also row riser height as you stated (the hypotenuse is the square root of the square of the two sides). So a steeper viewing angle will actually result in being further from the field if the seats are all built on the same plane, however, if some of the upper levels over-hang the bottom levels then the stadium will become more compact (for example if there are 50 rows from field level to the top of the stadium but 15 of the rows over-hang then effectively the top row is only 50 - 15 = 35 rows from the field). However, in such a vertical design the upper levels must have a steeper angle in order to see the entire field. A good hockey example is the Buffalo Auditorium. It was a very compact design with several levels and some over-hung the lower levels. The new HSBC arena in Buffalo doesn't have any overhangs and the result is a more spacious design (but the top row is further from the ice - in my opinion the old Buffalo Auditorium was a more intimate design for hockey). In the current 3D model I took this into account since it results in more seating rows per overall stadium width while requiring a relatively short roof overhang to cover all the seats.

As a stadium is built vertically such as the Skydome, there is the potential to have obstructed views if the viewing angle doesn't allow spectators to see the entire field. In some parts of the Skydome stadium the field is too close to the seats and thus some of the upper levels effectively becomes their own obstruction to seeing the edges of the field (you can see this if you check Blue Jay tickets, which has an interactive viewing feature, sections 539 and 509 and the sections to the right and left - http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/tor/...ng_pricing.jsp ). However, most of the seats at the Skydome are unobstructed and it is great for baseball.

A book that I really enjoyed reading was "Stadia - A Design and Development Guide" by Geraint John, Rod Sheard & Ben Vickery which I bought from Amazon.com.

I like the West Harbour proposal for Hamilton. This is a stadium design that I would wish for Halifax if cost were not a factor.

I'm of the mind that a 25,000-28,000 seat bowl doesn't need more than 1 tier. Empire Field is testament to that. West Harbour has 2 tiers, but I do love that design. I love for Halifax to get something like that too, but you're right that it's just not in the cards.

Is your reasoning for 3 tiers in your design due to optimizing distance from field? It is a compelling reason, but would make it more expensive.