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  #941  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:05 AM
macgregor macgregor is offline
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The empty lots definitely leave a big hole.

It would be great to develop the Cogswell interchange and the port grounds (Halterm). But why do so when there are empty lots downtown and not enough demand to fill them?
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  #942  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 5:05 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I have a hunch that if Nova Centre is built there will be a move to have large conferences right away - to show that they can make it work. So I suspect that there will be some large conferences that will test the hotel capacity and when it's shown that it may not be enough; many of the people interested in building hotels will move forward to do it.

Considering twisted sisters includes a hotel component, that will add more hotel rooms.

I think Halifax has got a unique situation in that you could have a conference there and stay at a hotel in downtown (like the Lord Nelson, Westin or Prince George) plus there are other hotels in the area. Then you have in close proximity (short walk) the old Holiday Inn on Quinpool, plus the Commons Inn on Agricola. Then because you also have a connection by ferry to downtown Dartmouth, which has a couple hotels (Ho Jo and Super 8) plus the Holiday Inn at the Bridge terminal. Most conferences provide transit passes in the city they are in - to encourage people to visit and explore. So lots of close hotel rooms in the core.
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  #943  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 11:47 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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There will also be the hotel associated with the convention centre once built.

Even if Halifax doesn't get the very large 10,000 delegate conventions, it is set up to hold two medium size convention at the same time so it might sometimes get say two 2,000 - 3000 delegate conventions. Then the hotels will be packed.

The problem will be during the peak tourist seasons when the hotels are heavily booked. Luckily, conventions are usually not held during the peak summer season. This will be great for hotels in the Halifax area since it will bring more people in during the non-peak periods of the spring and fall (but probably not the winter).
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  #944  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 12:28 PM
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Jonovision Jonovision is offline
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‘ All-out war’ predicted over convention centre


The new convention centre pro posed for Halifax has its vocal opponents but the downtown business community says build ing it should be a priority.

The Downtown Halifax Busi ness Commission has released the results from a recent survey of its membership and 31 per cent of the respondents said the con vention centre is the most impor tant piece of infrastructure need ed for a more vibrant downtown.

Local developer Rank Inc.

wants to include the convention centre as part of its multimillion dollar Nova Centre complex, along with a hotel and retail and office space, on the site of the former Halifax Herald Ltd. build ing on Argyle Street.

Convention centres are not traditionally stand-alone profit centres. They are used around the world as revenue generators for surrounding businesses, and governments recover their in vestment through increased tax revenue.

That fact has not been lost on downtown Halifax’s business community, which has been suffering through a down period.

The membership has wanted a bigger and better convention centre to be a priority for more than a decade.

But opponents are trying to block the government investment in the convention centre because of the height of the buildings included in the complex, which they argue would block the view of Halifax Harbour from the ramparts of Citadel Hill.

The developer and others say the old Herald property was not included in the original legisla tion that the former City of Hali fax passed to protect sightlines from Citadel Hill, nor was it add ed to Halifax Regional Municipal ity’s new HRM by Design devel opment plan. So highrise construction will happen on the site — with or without a convention centre.

Well-known developer Robert Stapells is angered by the anti highrise position that groups such as the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia have taken. He agrees with convention industry experts who have said the existing World Trade and Convention Centre, designed in the 1970s, lacks basic amenities such as proper exhibition space, dining capacity and loading docks.

“At this very moment, we are on the doorstep of another all-out war of conflicting downtown aspirations involving the anti development gang, who wish to remain quaintly planted in the past, and the pro-development crowd, who wish to create a stag ing ground for a more modern central business district," he says. Stapells, who was a member of the old Halifax city council from 1971 to 1974, says he remembers as a young alderman voting in favour of protecting 11 sightlines from Citadel Hill on the evening of Jan. 31, 1974. He says some of the same people who oppose the convention centre today were urging council at that time to pass the legislation, saying that high rise development would then be allowed on lands that were not included.

“Make no mistake, the Heritage Trust’s new smoke-and-mirrors stance has nothing to do with the economics of the world’s conven tion business, as they now claim," Stapells says. “It remains all about stopping higher-rise enterprise in the downtown.

“These people have a long standing record of anti-devel opment activity. Together they have cost private enterprise, tax payers and our grandkids many millions of dollars, not to mention many thousands of hours of staff time and major damage to our international reputation."

And so the battle continues, until Rank Inc. submits its final proposal for the site to the pro vincial government by July 19 and the government makes a decision on whether to partly fund the convention centre com ponent of the complex. That decision is expected in the early fall.

([email protected])

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  #945  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 1:59 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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The opponents of this are out in full force. Anyone who supports this convention centre should seriously consider posting a comment regarding this story at the following link: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Columnists/1181983.html. Based on business surveys and the support the convention centre petition (the support petition has more than twice the signatures of those opposed) I think most people are in favour of this convention centre. So I hope that the opponents won't make it sound like they are the majority again.
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  #946  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:43 PM
sdm sdm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
The opponents of this are out in full force. Anyone who supports this convention centre should seriously consider posting a comment regarding this story at the following link: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Columnists/1181983.html. Based on business surveys and the support the convention centre petition (the support petition has more than twice the signatures of those opposed) I think most people are in favour of this convention centre. So I hope that the opponents won't make it sound like they are the majority again.
It appears there is more opponents challenging the business case, not the view issue.
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  #947  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:44 PM
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I'll repost what I commented on the article, finally one with a less slanted view on the Save the View group.

It’s nice to finally see someone in the media explicitly point out the Heritage Trusts antics. I cringe every time they try to give an amateur economics lesson with respect to this development. The fact of the matter is they don't like tall buildings. If we were talking about a 3 story 100 million dollar trade center in Burnside they would not be fighting it. Economics is simply the tool they selected for this battle to mask their hatred for anything new and tall. These select few make themselves loud and unfortunately they are given the pedestal and “authority” by council and the media that makes them appear as a larger portion of the population than they actually represent. When push comes to shove they are just a special interest group and don’t deserve the preferential treatment they receive.
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  #948  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:51 PM
sdm sdm is offline
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Nice study the downtown business commission did, however there were only 6 choices a respondant could make, and i didn't see office development as one of them.
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  #949  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 3:06 PM
macgregor macgregor is offline
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Originally Posted by kph06 View Post
This Website has great aerial photos of Halifax, the image directly linked shows this site from a few weeks ago. Really shows how big the hole in the downtown it currently creates. There's some other great photos from around HRM.
That picture and the others are excellent. I'd really like monthly phototours by helicopter.
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  #950  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 3:22 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I actually posted a comment not about the business case, but meant to deflate the viewplane argument.

When I read the argument, I got that this guy wanted to deflate that argument once and for all and I agree with him.

I enjoyed Fenwick's comments and I'm sure others from here have posted as well - I use the same name there as here, but I think there is a definate group strategy here. Wow, this sounds like war room tactics.

Alright troops - here is the strategy: I'll nail'em on the viewplane/heritage angle and you go get'em on economics!
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  #951  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 6:22 PM
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Wishblade Wishblade is offline
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What I dont understand is why these groups are using the view to attack the convention centre. It's been stated that even if the convention centre doesnt go through, the highrises will be built, so they are actually inevitable:
Quote:
"The developer and others say the old Herald property was not included in the original legisla tion that the former City of Halifax passed to protect sightlines from Citadel Hill, nor was it add ed to Halifax Regional Municipal ity’s new HRM by Design devel opment plan. So highrise construction will happen on the site — with or without a convention centre."
So their only real argument is their statement that the convention industry is biting the dust, which isn't much of a leg to stand on according to the reports that were released...
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  #952  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 6:38 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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Originally Posted by Wishblade View Post
What I dont understand is why these groups are using the view to attack the convention centre. It's been stated that even if the convention centre doesnt go through, the highrises will be built, so they are actually inevitable:


So their only real argument is their statement that the convention industry is biting the dust, which isn't much of a leg to stand on according to the reports that were released...
There might be a height difference though. If it is built as the convention centre then it gets the special exemption that was granted. If it is built as just a typical development, then HbD applies, and the height limit for a development there is lower. They know that if they kill the convention centre then at the very least the building will have to be lower in height than what is proposed now. Hence the desire to kill it as a convention centre.
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  #953  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
There might be a height difference though. If it is built as the convention centre then it gets the special exemption that was granted. If it is built as just a typical development, then HbD applies, and the height limit for a development there is lower. They know that if they kill the convention centre then at the very least the building will have to be lower in height than what is proposed now. Hence the desire to kill it as a convention centre.
I'm not sure the "Save the View" crowd has thought that carefully about these things. Clearly they are either not thinking very clearly or are not very articulate, because there are much better lines of reasoning against the convention centre than what they have presented. I would guess that they are simply opposed to most new development on an irrational emotional level, which is why we see bumper sticker level battle cries.

Many people have utterly incoherent opinions when it comes to what should be done downtown. This is normal. The problem is that they are given too much weight.
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  #954  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 8:08 PM
sdm sdm is offline
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Originally Posted by Wishblade View Post
What I dont understand is why these groups are using the view to attack the convention centre. It's been stated that even if the convention centre doesnt go through, the highrises will be built, so they are actually inevitable:


So their only real argument is their statement that the convention industry is biting the dust, which isn't much of a leg to stand on according to the reports that were released...
No that is certainly not grounds to say they don't want it. However, reading the fine print, it appears all the data from the reports were supplied by trade centre, therefore there is a possibility that these reports need to be validated on their accuracy.

The Save the View crowd (heritage trust) should just stop now as this development has nothing to do about views. It should be about what we can afford and therefore the discussions (debate) should be on those merits, not on planning issues at this point. Sure planning issues can come into play (design) once we made the commitment that it is feasible to build.
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  #955  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 8:37 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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The real problem is that it is not really possible to validate the reports. As in any business, it will never be a sure thing.

It seems to me that many people against the convention centre want a "sure thing". To me it is a matter of people having a positive attitude that the Halifax area can succeed. I feel very confident based on the success of the current convention centre that the new convention centre will be able to attract a fair number of conventions (far more than most cities the size of Halifax).

I think the main issue should be the cost and whether or not the backers of the convention centre will be able to get federal funding. If the cost is too high and no federal funding is available then it will not be the right proposal. In this case maybe the Cunard Centre can be expanded (this could be be a second option - if it could be done for say $50 million dollars). The best case will be a reasonably priced Nova Place convention centre with federal funding.

The question in my mind is that if the funding is split equally between the three levels of government for a $100 million dollars convention centre will the provincial NDP fund it? I actually feel more confident of the federal funding than the provincial funding. However, we don't even know what the funding arrangement will be. I keep reading that it would be owned by Rank Corp and leased to the municipal/provincial government (will the federal government pay part of the leasing arrangement)?

Last edited by fenwick16; May 13, 2010 at 12:08 AM.
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  #956  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
It seems to me that many people against the convention centre want a "sure thing".
There are a bunch of fallacies coming from people who are opposed to the convention centre on economic grounds. In addition to the problem of people thinking the government can afford to only invest when there is no risk, a lot of people also think that everything can be built by the private sector. The logic goes that (1) if it's profitable the private sector will do it so (2) if they aren't it won't be profitable.

This logic is wrong because there are plenty of examples of infrastructure that are worthwhile on a large scale but not feasible for a single business to build. A private business building a major convention centre in downtown Halifax would not be able to capture all of the spinoffs from conventions (hotel night stays, restaurant visits, other tourist activities). The benefit to a potential developer is much lower than it would be to the city as a whole, and so sometimes it makes sense to build this kind of public infrastructure when it would be infeasible to do it privately.

Halifax could rely on the private sector for convention space, but then we'd get more facilities like the Cunard Centre and hosting major events would not be a possibility.

Of course, pointing this out does not prove that the development is worthwhile.
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  #957  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 9:14 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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If a private investor was able to collect the 15% HST on hotel accommodations associated with the convention centre, HST on meals, gifts, etc. then it is likely that a private investor would be interested. However, it is the government that collects these taxes so it makes sense for it to be funded by government.

Some cities have a hotel tax that could be applied to a convention centre and tourist promotion. However, I don't know if the HRM has considered this.
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  #958  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 10:52 PM
sdm sdm is offline
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Halifax could rely on the private sector for convention space, but then we'd get more facilities like the Cunard Centre and hosting major events would not be a possibility.

Of course, pointing this out does not prove that the development is worthwhile.
See thats where my sense is these days. Why not have more convention space that is privately funded and targeting the more active market, which is in the range of 600 - 900 delagtes? Projects like International Place, Twisted sisters, Salters Street and Queenslanding i believe all have convention space within their developments.

See to me we should be promoting more development of the smaller centres, allow (and hope) that the herald lands be built residential and in the end i think this move would more then save downtown. I for one do not agree this development will save downtown.
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  #959  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 11:46 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I have a feeling that some people will be cursing me for my misguided opinions but I am having second thoughts about the new convention centre. One reason is because Halifax has a 45,000 square foot columnless meeting hall (Cunard Centre) directly on the waterfront that is owned by the Halifax Port Authority (and operated by RCR Hospitality Group). What a great location right next to the water, Pier 21 and cruise ship terminal. This would be a great opportunity to spend a bit of money to expand this facility and maybe tear up the tracks to the south of the Via Station (but not the Via tracks). More parking could be added. A private interest could build a large hotel, etc., etc., etc. I never thought that I would say it but maybe sdm was right all along.

If $20 - $30 million were spent on this facility, it could probably be doubled in size and opened up with lots of windows so people would have a panoramic view of the water. Then take the money that has been saved and spend part of it on a outdoor municipal stadium ($30 million dollars only). Then Halifax will have a great convention facility and an outdoor stadium for about 1/2 the price of the new convention centre. And to be fair to Rank Corp, for all the trouble that they have gone through at the request of the provincial government, allow them the same building height as they would of had with the convention centre included in the development (i.e. allow what is in the HRMbyDesign).

Maybe I am missing something here?

(source: http://www.rcr.ca/catering/venues/cunard-centre/ )

Last edited by fenwick16; May 13, 2010 at 12:01 AM.
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  #960  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 2:04 AM
DigitalNinja DigitalNinja is offline
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The thing is though, is a big center should not be on the water. That should be a place for the public, and nice area to view with quality development. Not something that will be built and nothing will be done for a long time.
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