First Nations Issues

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Some of us pointing out that it's better to move on and forgive, rather than place blame on others for past historical events makes us trolls? In life you may find that people who forgive instead of holding on to resentments, and blaming others for past history have a higher quality of life. The First Nations people/communities who have actually forgiven the people that harmed them in the past do far better in life than the people who blame everything on Canadians of European ancestry. Sticking up for your rights is one thing, but protesting Canada's 150th birthday, claiming it's a "celebration of colonialism and genocide" is ridiculous. We're all Canadians, and divisive politics never work. We should be working together to achieve goals and understanding.

Too much political correctiveness can be a very dangerous thing. It's was one of the reasons Donald Trump won the US election. Repeatedly blaming 75% of Canadians for "524 years of Colonialism" won't change anything, and will just test people's patience. People are in Canada to stay. If pointing that out makes myself or others trolls, then so be it.

[DirtWednesday]

Originally Posted by Pegoise

Dirt, Your points are not lost on everyone. I know I am feeding the trolls here but this country still needs to work through a lot of anger. Sometimes when the majority sees the minority stick up for their rights, they think they are going to lose something (usu their position of privilege) and they react.
You just keep doing you (trite cliché of the day) Thank you for your perspective

Tiring when I break out the positive things happening in native communities, and even in Winnipeg, and these guys go on an old boring cyclic tirade on the blame game and BORG assimilation. I wasn't blaming anything, just point out some history and how we're moving past it, working better to work together despite differences. I must have used some trigger words and their brains shut off and went into autopilot. At least now I know despite 13.5 years of service at my company I'm more likely to disappear than the new hire.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Roger Strong

They ARE getting the tech training.

My dad remarried, giving me several step-brothers with treaty status. A couple of them are as hard-working as anyone I know. Great people. The one who isn't though, because of his treaty status gets endless opportunities that I could only dream of.

At a time when I was trying to raise the money to take the Certified Novell Engineer tests, the government paid for his training and tests, and gave him a dream job. He soon lost interest and stopped showing up.

At a time when I was trying to raise the money to get MCSE certification, my dad asked if I wanted his MCSE books. The government paid for his MCSE training and got him a job at the North-West company. But he soon lost interest and stopped showing up.

Repeat, over and over.

Well, you know, when a new colonizing power comes in, takes all of our land and language and way of life away from us and then tries to bribe us as if that would make everything alright, you can enjoy that kind of largess too.

I always laugh at people crying about natives being on the "gravy train". They're living in mouldy shacks and all we've got as white men is 9,600,000 square kilometres of land and $1,700,000,000,000 between us.

I hear white people say they wish they were natives all the time and it's hilarious. Notwithstanding the fact that like 75% of native people are indistinguishable from the rest of the population in every aspect except ancestry, native people in general are less wealthy, less healthy, and less happy because of that 25% or so that has been significantly negatively impacted. Why are white people jealous of that? Constantly complaining that handouts don't work and then whining that they don't get any. It's a paradox.

People do the same thing about ODSP recipients, which is arguably worse because they're literally envying disabled people. If they could by anything in the world they wanted to be, they'd probably be disappointed.

[jmt18325]

Just for clarity - I haven't colonized any country. I was born here, this is my home, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

[vid]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Just for clarity - I haven't colonized any country. I was born here, this is my home, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

How would you feel if it were taken away from you?

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by vid

How would you feel if it were taken away from you?

That might mean something, had I taken my home away from someone. I didn't.

[vid]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

That might mean something, had I taken my home away from someone. I didn't.

That's because someone took it away from someone first. If someone sells you stolen property, you didn't steal it, but is it yours?

You can argue that it was legitimately obtained through the treaties but the treaties themselves are rather dubious, with the events having taken place since essentially meaning they were either negotiated in bad faith or simply broken by the government that signed them.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by vid

That's because someone took it away from someone first.

And what if I didn't own any property? Is Canada my home then? This is the problem with people with your viewpoint. Canada exists. It will continue to exist. 'Settlers', white, brown, and black, aren't going anywhere. Many of them don't have another home to go to. Until people with such an activist position recognize that reality, there's not much of a conversation to be had.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by vid

That's because someone took it away from someone first. If someone sells you stolen property, you didn't steal it, but is it yours?

You can argue that it was legitimately obtained through the treaties but the treaties themselves are rather dubious, with the events having taken place since essentially meaning they were either negotiated in bad faith or simply broken by the government that signed them.

So what is the end game? Is it for white people to pack up and leave? For some level of government to pay money to a fund? How much money? Or kick white people off the stolen land and they all live in the city or a city? Would the First Nations like white people (and black people and brown people as well) to go back to Europe, Africa and Asia?

And how far do you go back regarding who stole land from whom? The Sioux from the Mandan, the Iroquois from the Huron, the English from the Scots and Irish, the Normans from the Saxons, the Saxons from the Pics, and it goes on and on and on. I really wonder if the Cree are even happy there are Sioux squatters west of Brandon?

Is there a statute of limitations? What about mixed blood people? Who gets to decide?

Give the Government of Canada a goal that first nations would like to attain (which I am pretty sure equality with the rest of Canada would be a good start) be that true sovereign government (with all the trappings that come along with it), wide swaths of the country broken up into new provinces run by FN, or a much larger payment of money monthly forever. Give us something, because all I'm hearing right now is that I'm (the royal I'm) a piece of shit squatting settler living on stolen land who rapes FN women and murder FN men.

[vid]

We could discuss what Canada would look like if Indigenous people had more sovereignty over the land they do occupy within Canada. What if indigenous people in Northern Manitoba had more of a say over land use in their treaty area? What if they had the ability to develop and implement their own education and health-care systems?

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So what is the end game? Is it for white people to pack up and leave? For some level of government to pay money to a fund? How much money? Or kick white people off the stolen land and they all live in the city or a city? Would the First Nations like white people (and black people and brown people as well) to go back to Europe, Africa and Asia?

And how far do you go back regarding who stole land from whom? The Sioux from the Mandan, the Iroquois from the Huron, the English from the Scots and Irish, the Normans from the Saxons, the Saxons from the Pics, and it goes on and on and on. I really wonder if the Cree are even happy there are Sioux squatters west of Brandon?

Is there a statute of limitations? What about mixed blood people? Who gets to decide?

Give the Government of Canada a goal that first nations would like to attain (which I am pretty sure equality with the rest of Canada would be a good start) be that true sovereign government (with all the trappings that come along with it), wide swaths of the country broken up into new provinces run by FN, or a much larger payment of money monthly forever. Give us something, because all I'm hearing right now is that I'm (the royal I'm) a piece of shit squatting settler living on stolen land who rapes FN women and murder FN men.

The bolded. 1000x the bolded. These kinds of land wars have been going on since the existance of humanity; this is not a uniquely Aboriginal issue.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by vid

What if they had the ability to develop and implement their own education and health-care systems?

They do. I work very closely with a first nation on a daily basis, so I know what they can and can't do.

[vid]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So what is the end game? Is it for white people to pack up and leave? For some level of government to pay money to a fund? How much money? Or kick white people off the stolen land and they all live in the city or a city? Would the First Nations like white people (and black people and brown people as well) to go back to Europe, Africa and Asia?

The end game is self determination within a land that is theirs. They don't expect settlers to leave, just to acknowledge that the land used to belong to someone else and the terms under which we acquired it weren't exactly the most honest.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Give the Government of Canada a goal that first nations would like to attain (which I am pretty sure equality with the rest of Canada would be a good start) be that true sovereign government (with all the trappings that come along with it), wide swaths of the country broken up into new provinces run by FN, or a much larger payment of money monthly forever. Give us something, because all I'm hearing right now is that I'm (the royal I'm) a piece of shit squatting settler living on stolen land who rapes FN women and murder FN men.

I've done that dozens (hundreds?) of times on this forum. Many times in this very discussion, if you go back and read the previous 47 pages we've written over the past 9 years. I did so in the post immediately before this. They don't get many responses.

Ideas on how to split land use planning and natural resource revenue between First Nations and provinces, dozens of ideas on political structures to bring indigenous self-determination to the same level as provinces or the federal government, ideas on how to reform education and health care, ways in which we could phase out the Indian Act with an indigenous people's constitution (or constitutions). I've written more than a few 5,000+ word essays on this board about what can be done.

What happens after I hit "submit reply"? The thread goes silent for a few months until someone posts another article about how bad things are for First Nations people. Then we trade insults and talking points until I post another long essay and the discussion dies again. I've been doing this for a decade and nothing has changed. Not at the political level (because this forum has 0 influence on anything that's actually relevant to anyone, anywhere) but also not at the personal level, where several of you will say I make good points or agree with me only to disagree again the next time we have the exact same discussion.

I don't know if the problem is an inability to listen or an inability to retain information or both, but I'm tired of having to write my way out of the same accusation multiple times a year just to be ignored after I hit "send". That's largely why I have, for the most part, given up on discussing this topic here. I changes nothing. I've spent an hour on this tonight, and to what end?

[vid]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

the English from the Scots and Irish

The Scots got self determination and might regain independence in our lifetime. The Irish have independence.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

the Normans from the Saxons, the Saxons from the Pics

Those people are all assimilated. Essentially, they're gone now. Few people in the world identify as a Norman, a Saxon, or a Pict. If any. I can't think of one.

So basically the examples you've given are either people who are more independent than our First Nations or people who don't exist anymore. Imagine you're part of an ethnic group that faces extinction. How do you feel? I disagree with the wingnuts who hate Islam because it's "erasing our culture" but I least I have an understanding of where they're coming from, and why they're saying that. Don't you think it's hypocritical for the English, who wiped out dozens of cultures worldwide, are revolting against immigration to their own countries? It's natural! The English will be just like the Picts some day. A memory. That's acceptable to say, right? You agree with that idea, correct? It fits your logic.

[drew]

Originally Posted by vid

We could discuss what Canada would look like if Indigenous people had more sovereignty over the land they do occupy within Canada. What if indigenous people in Northern Manitoba had more of a say over land use in their treaty area? What if they had the ability to develop and implement their own education and health-care systems?

Yes. Lets spend a few moments and imagine just how well that would turn out.

Have you ever spent anytime on any reserve in Manitoba 3+ hours driving distance north from Winnipeg?

The time has long since passed for these communities to have any ability to take on real responsibility for the welfare of their citizens. From my observations having spent a lot of time in these communities, we are on generation 2 of what I would refer to as "lost generations". People who will eventually become the elders, the leaders of these communities. It is truly scary to think what will happen when the last of the current generation of leaders and elders who are 50, 60, 70 years old - when they pass on. There are so few capable individuals following them.

These communities are broken. Simply broken. No amount of self governance is going to change that going forward. If you don't believe me, perhaps you should take a bit of a road trip and see for yourself.

These communities are placed in isolated areas with no real way to develop industries or commerce. No amount of resource sharing or co-development is going to change that. The only real way to improve people's lives is to get them somewhere where they will actually have that ability. It isn't northern Manitoba. And it won't ever be. The land cannot support communities like Cross Lake with rapidly expanding populations exceeding 6000 people -And only a handful of actual paying jobs. It just cannot work.

[vid]

Originally Posted by drew

Yes. Lets spend a few moments and imagine just how well that would turn out.

Have you ever spent anytime on any reserve in Manitoba 3+ hours driving distance north from Winnipeg?

The time has long since passed for these communities to have any ability to take on real responsibility for the welfare of their citizens.

These communities are broken. Simply broken. No amount of self governance is going to change that going forward. If you don't believe me, perhaps you should take a bit of a road trip and see for yourself.

Not only does the exact same problem exist in Northern Ontario, it's literally worse here. What if they had the ability to develop their own education and health care systems 40 years ago? But that's hindsight. Doesn't count.

So how do we fix that? How do we take a population plagued by chronic depression, substance abuse and isolation and make them better? When Europeans had these problems they went to the new world, set up their own governments and gave away free farmland. Indigenous people don't have a new world with free farmland to go to and set up a new life like oppressed Ukrainians did 100 years ago.

You guys should write a 5,000 word essay on this for me so that I can have something to think about over the weekend. I'm going to bed now.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by vid

The end game is self determination within a land that is theirs. They don't expect settlers to leave, just to acknowledge that the land used to belong to someone else and the terms under which we acquired it weren't exactly the most honest.



I've done that dozens (hundreds?) of times on this forum. Many times in this very discussion, if you go back and read the previous 47 pages we've written over the past 9 years. I did so in the post immediately before this. They don't get many responses.

Ideas on how to split land use planning and natural resource revenue between First Nations and provinces, dozens of ideas on political structures to bring indigenous self-determination to the same level as provinces or the federal government, ideas on how to reform education and health care, ways in which we could phase out the Indian Act with an indigenous people's constitution (or constitutions). I've written more than a few 5,000+ word essays on this board about what can be done.

What happens after I hit "submit reply"? The thread goes silent for a few months until someone posts another article about how bad things are for First Nations people. Then we trade insults and talking points until I post another long essay and the discussion dies again. I've been doing this for a decade and nothing has changed. Not at the political level (because this forum has 0 influence on anything that's actually relevant to anyone, anywhere) but also not at the personal level, where several of you will say I make good points or agree with me only to disagree again the next time we have the exact same discussion.

I don't know if the problem is an inability to listen or an inability to retain information or both, but I'm tired of having to write my way out of the same accusation multiple times a year just to be ignored after I hit "send". That's largely why I have, for the most part, given up on discussing this topic here. I changes nothing. I've spent an hour on this tonight, and to what end?

The problem here is that I can do jack squat to help you because I'm just another cog in the wheel. My opinion means nothing in the big scheme of things. And sure as shit I know that the land my family farms on is part of Treaty 1 and it likely changed hands 3 or 4 times before we got our hands on it. My great grand parents on my mom's side are Mennonites who came from the Ukraine to the Red River in 1870 and they interacted fairly with the locals to the point that they were the go to family if you needed a job or a meal.

But you can explain and explain on this forum til you're blue in the face and nothing will change. It'll only take leadership from somewhere and a lot of compromise to get people to change.

[drew]

Originally Posted by vid

Not only does the exact same problem exist in Northern Ontario, it's literally worse here. What if they had the ability to develop their own education and health care systems 40 years ago? But that's hindsight. Doesn't count.

So how do we fix that? How do we take a population plagued by chronic depression, substance abuse and isolation and make them better? When Europeans had these problems they went to the new world, set up their own governments and gave away free farmland. Indigenous people don't have a new world with free farmland to go to and set up a new life like oppressed Ukrainians did 100 years ago.

You guys should write a 5,000 word essay on this for me so that I can have something to think about over the weekend. I'm going to bed now.

Unfortunately the answer is the simplest and also the one that will probably never happen.

We move communities. We move communities to better land, further south, and closer to the actual economy of Canada.

Without doing that, we are simply throwing money at a problem that will never improve.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by vid

The Scots got self determination and might regain independence in our lifetime. The Irish have independence.



Those people are all assimilated. Essentially, they're gone now. Few people in the world identify as a Norman, a Saxon, or a Pict. If any. I can't think of one.

So basically the examples you've given are either people who are more independent than our First Nations or people who don't exist anymore. Imagine you're part of an ethnic group that faces extinction. How do you feel? I disagree with the wingnuts who hate Islam because it's "erasing our culture" but I least I have an understanding of where they're coming from, and why they're saying that. Don't you think it's hypocritical for the English, who wiped out dozens of cultures worldwide, are revolting against immigration to their own countries? It's natural! The English will be just like the Picts some day. A memory. That's acceptable to say, right? You agree with that idea, correct? It fits your logic.

So you cherry picked, nice.
You are smart fella, but you are wasting your time on here. Your effort should be used at a higher level than arguing with a bunch of folks who do not have the power to institute the change required for your people to survive.

Hey maybe we'll all eventually become Metis and the Euro/Africa/Asiatic/Western Hemisphere Indigenous parts of us can join the scrap heap of forgotten cultures.

[JM5]

There's no stopping this argument as long as some people are aboriginal and some are not. Aboriginals will never be happy as long as they live on dilapidated reserves where they were sent over 100 years ago and they will always be at an economic disadvantage since on reserve they can't own real estate.

Non aboriginals will never be happy as long as aboriginals continue to enjoy their red privilege, cost everyone else tons of taxes and still consider themselves oppressed by whitey and protest everything under the sun.

We have to put an end to making distinctions between people and having distinct rights and privileges within the same jurisdiction. The treaty system has failed, we need to dismantle it. Imo, it should be replaced with self governing autonomous communities where aboriginal culture is protected and celebrated.