West Gatineau LRT & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

On the Gatineau LRT, this is a legitimate concern on Wellington. It's not just some regular avenue. It's part of a public space that routinely sees traffic closures for pedestrian use. There's also a ton of security implications. It's just safer and easier to bury it in the core.

But real talk, how many times per month does Wellington see closures?
How many of those see the entire street closed?
How many occur around rush hour?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

But real talk, how many times per month does Wellington see closures?
How many of those see the entire street closed?
How many occur around rush hour?

Ottawans pay taxes to use thier own street, Gatineau has no right to boot traffic off it when they dont pay taxes for it. If Gatineau wants to earn some goodwill for the project the they should boot cars off tache, maissoneuve and les allumnetieres. Also you ignored the fact that streetcars were never allowed on Wellington when they were around so there is your precedent on why a tunnel under sparks will happen.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Ottawans pay taxes to use thier own street, Gatineau has no right to boot traffic off it when they dont pay taxes for it. If Gatineau wants to earn some goodwill for the project the they should boot cars off tache, maissoneuve and les allumnetieres. Also you ignored the fact that streetcars were never allowed on Wellington when they were around so there is your precedent on why a tunnel under sparks will happen.

Doesn't the NCC kind of control what happens with Wellington? And assuming the Wellington plan is a good one (which it generally is compared to the status quo) this kind of "they can't do that" crap is an awful attitude to have.

The argument that we can't have streetcars on Wellington for some "reason" is also ridiculous seeing as we've happily let private vehicles trod all over it for decades.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Doesn't the NCC kind of control what happens with Wellington? And assuming the Wellington plan is a good one (which it generally is compared to the status quo) this kind of "they can't do that" crap is an awful attitude to have.

The argument that we can't have streetcars on Wellington for some "reason" is also ridiculous seeing as we've happily let private vehicles trod all over it for decades.

I say this because this discussion happened when the streetcars were around and that's why the federal government had plans for a streetcar tunnel 100 years ago that never happened. all you have to do is check past transit maps during the streetcar era and all of them show them using sparks and queen streets while avoiding Wellington.

I'm not sure why they were not allowed on Wellington but I think it was because of security concerns I'll have to check.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Ottawans pay taxes to use thier own street, Gatineau has no right to boot traffic off it when they dont pay taxes for it. If Gatineau wants to earn some goodwill for the project the they should boot cars off tache, maissoneuve and les allumnetieres. Also you ignored the fact that streetcars were never allowed on Wellington when they were around so there is your precedent on why a tunnel under sparks will happen.

I am not actually that keen on trams on Wellington, but even so I don't think that anyone with any power or political savvy sees such matters in these terms.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

But real talk, how many times per month does Wellington see closures?
How many of those see the entire street closed?
How many occur around rush hour?

As someone who waited every weekday afternoon for 15 years in downtown Hull for an STO bus that first had to run down Wellington in Ottawa, I will answer: more often than you'd think. Or like.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not actually that keen on trams on Wellington, but even so I don't think that anyone with any power or political savvy sees such matters in these terms.

I meant that Gatineau is being greedy by expecting Ottawa let it use their street and denying ottawa taxpayers from using their cars on it even though they paid for it.

Like come on that is being very unreasonable dont you think?

Just to correct a previous post the feds didnt allow streetcars in front of the parliament buildings, they did allow them on Wellington west of bank street. Just take a look at past transit maps to see what I am talking about.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Ottawans pay taxes to use thier own street, Gatineau has no right to boot traffic off it when they dont pay taxes for it. If Gatineau wants to earn some goodwill for the project the they should boot cars off tache, maissoneuve and les allumnetieres. Also you ignored the fact that streetcars were never allowed on Wellington when they were around so there is your precedent on why a tunnel under sparks will happen.

I agree and think the tunnel is the only option, but the us vs. them will be the ultimate nail in the coffin for this project.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I meant that Gatineau is being greedy by expecting Ottawa let it use their street and denying ottawa taxpayers from using their cars on it even though they paid for it.

Like come on that is being very unreasonable dont you think?

Just to correct a previous post the feds didnt allow streetcars in front of the parliament buildings, they did allow them on Wellington west of bank street. Just take a look at past transit maps to see what I am talking about.

It's not going to go down Wellington Street, but it's probably not going under Sparks either because of the us vs. them mentality.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by caboose

I agree and think the tunnel is the only option, but the us vs. them will be the ultimate nail in the coffin for this project.

my previous post clarified that comment, anyway we are having these transit problems because we are not a federal district of Ottawa Gatineau like we should be, this would be my preferred choice and then it would be easier to get these projects going since everyone pays into the same pot.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

my previous post clarified that comment, anyway we are having these transit problems because we are not a federal district of Ottawa Gatineau like we should be, this would be my preferred choice and then it would be easier to get these projects going since everyone pays into the same pot.

A federal district will never happen. But that doesn't mean a joint interprovincial transit agency can't be formed. Washington DC Metro goes to Maryland and Virginia as well. They've had it worked out for 40 years.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by caboose

A federal district will never happen. But that doesn't mean a joint interprovincial transit agency can't be formed. Washington DC Metro goes to Maryland and Virginia as well. They've had it worked out for 40 years.

That would be a good option too but that requires federal involvement and that is just not as likely as the first option.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

But real talk, how many times per month does Wellington see closures?
How many of those see the entire street closed?
How many occur around rush hour?

Changing of the Guard during the summer. Everyday. Other than that, sure, it's only a few times a year. But more to the point, put something on Wellington and it will be a magnet for protests. And everytime there's an event, service might be disrupted. And then the city and the NCC has to live with a loss of space on top of all that.

All this gets resolved with the Sparks tunnel and users get a better transfer experience.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

That would be a good option too but that requires federal involvement and that is just not as likely as the first option.

It requires people genuinely interested in a solution good for both sides of the river. I don't know how that ever happens.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I meant that Gatineau is being greedy by expecting Ottawa let it use their street and denying ottawa taxpayers from using their cars on it even though they paid for it.

I somewhat prefer the Sparks tunnel to the Wellington option, but I'm really not buying the argument that Ottawa taxpaypers "deserve" to drive on Wellington because of taxes. Do Ottawa taxpayers "deserve" to drive on Sparks, William, and every MUP in the city as well?

I will allow that if Wellington is the preferred option, then the NCC should take over ownership and maintenance of Wellington.

Changing of the Guard during the summer. Everyday.

Even if Wellington ended up completely closed to cars, the tram wouldn't take up that much of the ROW. I would there there would be plenty left over for bike infrastructure and a wide pedestrian promenade that could accommodate Changing of the Guard?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I say this because this discussion happened when the streetcars were around and that's why the federal government had plans for a streetcar tunnel 100 years ago that never happened. all you have to do is check past transit maps during the streetcar era and all of them show them using sparks and queen streets while avoiding Wellington.

I'm not sure why they were not allowed on Wellington but I think it was because of security concerns I'll have to check.

If streetcars can't be allowed on Wellington for aesthetic or security reasons, neither should private vehicles.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I somewhat prefer the Sparks tunnel to the Wellington option, but I'm really not buying the argument that Ottawa taxpaypers "deserve" to drive on Wellington because of taxes. Do Ottawa taxpayers "deserve" to drive on Sparks, William, and every MUP in the city as well?

That's a strawman argument, a better example would be if I paid for something and then was told I wouldn't be allowed to use it after many years of using it then I would be very pissed. That is what Gatineau is proposing here and it's very selfish for them to do that.

In my opinion Gatineau wants it on Wellington to keep the costs down so they can proceed with the T1 option otherwise the tunnel will make it too expensive and they would have to go with either H1 or H2 which in my opinion serve the people better than the T1 option.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Changing of the Guard during the summer. Everyday. Other than that, sure, it's only a few times a year. But more to the point, put something on Wellington and it will be a magnet for protests. And everytime there's an event, service might be disrupted. And then the city and the NCC has to live with a loss of space on top of all that.

All this gets resolved with the Sparks tunnel and users get a better transfer experience.

The CTG lasts less than 5 minutes on Wellington during off-peak hours. If that's the most significant disruption, then we're in good shape. Any of the remaining handful of events can either proceed with trams running at reduced speed, or they just stop and turn around at Lyon.

As for the tracks getting blockaded, I don't get this concern. It's a surface system and could technically get blockaded anywhere. Even an underground station could easily get blockaded if a few people were just to step off the little curb onto the tracks. But I've never heard of this happening anywhere.


Look, there are good arguments for the tunnel option. I don't know why its proponents have been leaning so heavily on the weakest ones (handful of detour hours per year, taxpayers "deserve" to drive, quid pro quo closures, whataboutism).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As for the tracks getting blockaded, I don't get this concern. It's a surface system and could technically get blockaded anywhere. Even an underground station could easily get blockaded if a few people were just to step off the little curb onto the tracks. But I've never heard of this happening anywhere.

We just went through months where freight rail lines blocked by First Nations protests almost brought the country to its knees. Zero reason to believe a highly visible transit line in front of Parliament Hill won't be a protest magnet.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Look, there are good arguments for the tunnel option. I don't know why its proponents have been leaning so heavily on the weakest ones (handful of detour hours per year, taxpayers "deserve" to drive, quid pro quo closures, whataboutism).

I'm not one to argue about aesthetics or something like that. I am not even going to argue about Ottawa residents using the avenue, because it's NCC controlled. And I do think the value of a simpler transfer to the Confederation Line speaks in favour of the Sparks tunnel. I just don't believe the risk of disruption can be as easily dismissed. Heck, this was a concern brought up for why the Confederation Line had to be buried through the core. And they weren't running that in front of the Hill.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We just went through months where freight rail lines blocked by First Nations protests almost brought the country to its knees. Zero reason to believe a highly visible transit line in front of Parliament Hill won't be a protest magnet.

Surface transit has run right in front of Queen's Park for about a century at this point. It isn't regularly blockaded. Nor has street traffic been blockaded for any significant length of time on Wellington.

You kind of make the argument why; blockading a single railway crossing brought major disruptions to the entire country which no one could ignore. For better or worse, it was tremendously effective at drawing attention.
Blocking a section of the tram loop would... inconvenience interprovincial transit riders? Depending on where it gets blocked, they'd either have to walk a few blocks further or wait a few minutes for replacement buses.
At best, you might be able to get people as far as Arnprior to notice, let alone care.

Just because they both run on rails doesn't make them even remotely analogous. It just isn't realistic to expect that, of all the places in the world where surface transit runs within view of a national or political symbol, Ottawa is somehow more prone to disruption. And not only that, but so prone to regular disruption and politically-motivated blockading that it would be unviable. And it's unreasonable to expect to spend hundreds of millions of dollars extra on the basis of this far-fetched whatifism.

Again, there are arguments against Wellington. But this ain't it, chief.