Winnipeg Construction X

[Biff]

I hate piling on and sounding negative, as I truly love Winnipeg, but man…downtown Calgary is clean. Here on business and just walking around. The tall buildings are nice and all, but the city is just so clean and well kept. City workers out cleaning and line painting last night at 11:00 pm, watering trees and just general upkeep.

Sigh!

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by Biff

I hate piling on and sounding negative, as I truly love Winnipeg, but man…downtown Calgary is clean. Here on business and just walking around. The tall buildings are nice and all, but the city is just so clean and well kept. City workers out cleaning and line painting last night at 11:00 pm, watering trees and just general upkeep.

Sigh!

Well taxing and spending twice the amount on the municipal operating budget on a per-capita basis ($2,700 in Calgary versus $1,400 in Winnipeg) will do that. Winnipeggers would much prefer tiny tax bills instead of a clean and functional city, and then complain every time they visit Calgary or Vancouver and wonder why things look the way they do back home.

Calgary, the land of milk and honey as they say.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Well taxing and spending twice the amount on the municipal operating budget on a per-capita basis ($2,700 in Calgary versus $1,400 in Winnipeg) will do that. Winnipeggers would much prefer tiny tax bills instead of a clean and functional city, and then complain every time they visit Calgary or Vancouver and wonder why things look the way they do back home.

Calgary, the land of milk and honey as they say.

I get what you're saying, but I suspect capacity to pay may have something to do with that. All else being roughly equal, it is probably easier for a typical Calgarian to cut a cheque for $2,700 than it is for a Winnipegger.

We are known as a thrifty city, but I think that is only partly by choice.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by esquire

I get what you're saying, but I suspect capacity to pay may have something to do with that. All else being roughly equal, it is probably easier for a typical Calgarian to cut a cheque for $2,700 than it is for a Winnipegger.

We are known as a thrifty city, but I think that is only partly by choice.

Fair enough, but according to the 2020 census, median after-tax household income in Winnipeg is 18% lower ($69,500) than Calgary ($85,000). While there is no doubt incomes are higher in Calgary and income tax rates are lower, is that really enough to explain Winnipeg spending 48% less on municipal services compared to Calgary on a per-person basis?

I'd argue that yes, Calgary can afford more, and their city is probably one of the better taken care of cities in Canada thanks to their economy benefiting heavily from the energy sector. But Winnipeggers are severely undertaxed at a municipal level and overtaxed at a provincial level, and it creates a massive imbalance that clearly comes through when you look around at the state of our infrastructure and public spaces.

The low property tax rate in Winnipeg probably does more harm than good, but the "pro businesses, fiscal conservative" crowd would never admit that.

[esquire]

^ Thanks for the stats. Yes, I agree that on the whole we are undertaxed and the results show. But I don't think we could necessarily attain Calgary levels of per capita revenue without imposing a significant degree of hardship on at least some sectors of the population. The question is how close can we actually get to that.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Fair enough, but according to the 2020 census, median after-tax household income in Winnipeg is 18% lower ($69,500) than Calgary ($85,000). While there is no doubt incomes are higher in Calgary and income tax rates are lower, is that really enough to explain Winnipeg spending 48% less on municipal services compared to Calgary on a per-person basis?

I'd argue that yes, Calgary can afford more, and their city is probably one of the better taken care of cities in Canada thanks to their economy benefiting heavily from the energy sector. But Winnipeggers are severely undertaxed at a municipal level and overtaxed at a provincial level, and it creates a massive imbalance that clearly comes through when you look around at the state of our infrastructure and public spaces.

The low property tax rate in Winnipeg probably does more harm than good, but the "pro businesses, fiscal conservative" crowd would never admit that.

To the bolded comment, a lot of this shortfall is in part corrected due to equalization transfers from the Feds. We should be able to claw our way back as a city with slightly greater than normal Prop Tax hikes and appropriate spending on old and new infrastructure projects. We also need to find ways to leverage other Federal dollars much better.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Winnipeggers would much prefer tiny tax bills instead of a clean and functional city

Winnipeg residents cannot even agree on the most basic of things like building a functional road network (Kennaston) or creating a functional transit system without getting dragged way off into the weeds (LRT or nothing).

Another big factor in Calgary v Winnipeg is Calgary is a much younger city than Winnipeg so they aren't getting hit as hard with the bills to repair aging infrastructure.

[zalf]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Well taxing and spending twice the amount on the municipal operating budget on a per-capita basis ($2,700 in Calgary versus $1,400 in Winnipeg) will do that. Winnipeggers would much prefer tiny tax bills instead of a clean and functional city, and then complain every time they visit Calgary or Vancouver and wonder why things look the way they do back home.

Calgary, the land of milk and honey as they say.

Could I trouble you for sources for this? I believe you, and have even made the same claim to others. Problem is, I forget where I came across these numbers before, and having a reference close to hand is useful for advocacy and arguments.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by zalf

Could I trouble you for sources for this? I believe you, and have even made the same claim to others. Problem is, I forget where I came across these numbers before, and having a reference close to hand is useful for advocacy and arguments.

Sure, here's the quick math with sources:

• This City of Calgary PDF puts their 2023 operating budget, net of capital, at $4.696 billion (on page 5). We should minus $832 million for water treatment, wastewater, and stormwater (retrieved from this link) to make an apples-to-apples comparison with Winnipeg since Winnipeg's operating budget doesn't include utilities - they are presented separately in Winnipeg. So the 2023 adjusted operating budget for Calgary is $3.864 billion.
• This City of Winnipeg PDF puts their 2023 preliminary operating budget, net of capital, at $1.089 billion (on page 280).
• This Statistics Canada Table 17-10-0142-01 puts Calgary's 2022 population at 1,413,800 and Winnipeg's population at 783,096.
• Dividing their respective operating budgets by population yields $2,732 per person in Calgary, and $1,391 per person in Winnipeg.
• Apologies for not having 2023 population counts available to contrast against the 2023 budget for same year comparisons, but the number likely won't change too much once 2023 population figures are released.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Sure, here's the quick math with sources:

• This City of Calgary PDF puts their 2023 operating budget, net of capital, at $4.696 billion (on page 5). We should minus $832 million for water treatment, wastewater, and stormwater (retrieved from this link) to make an apples-to-apples comparison with Winnipeg since Winnipeg's operating budget doesn't include utilities - they are presented separately in Winnipeg. So the 2023 adjusted operating budget for Calgary is $3.864 billion.
• This City of Winnipeg PDF puts their 2023 preliminary operating budget, net of capital, at $1.089 billion (on page 280).
• This Statistics Canada Table 17-10-0142-01 puts Calgary's 2022 population at 1,413,800 and Winnipeg's population at 783,096.
• Dividing their respective operating budgets by population yields $2,732 per person in Calgary, and $1,391 per person in Winnipeg.
• Apologies for not having 2023 population counts available to contrast against the 2023 budget for same year comparisons, but the number likely won't change too much once 2023 population figures are released.

If Winnipeg was given access to 18% of the equalization payments from the Feds, it would make up the per capita shortfall in Winnipeg is missing. Imagine what we could do with an extra ~$450 Mil?

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by dmacc

If Winnipeg was given access to 18% of the equalization payments from the Feds, it would make up the per capita shortfall in Winnipeg is missing. Imagine what we could do with an extra ~$450 Mil?

Maybe? But Provinces are the recipients of equalization payments, not municipalities, so I don't think any city in Canada directly gets access to equalization payments. One could also argue the city indirectly gets equalization payments from the Province via the operating grants it receives. If the Province were to hand over some portion of equalization payments, they would just reduce operating grants so the net change would be ambiguous.

In any case, it's not really fair to compare Winnipeg to what is likely the most fiscally prosperous major city in Canada. Calgary has the amazing ability to keep property taxes somewhat low (just slightly above Winnipeg's on average) and expenditures high, mostly due to the energy sector which provides high-paying jobs, valuable office towers, and spinoff industries that enable them to have a wealth of public luxuries that most other Canadian cities couldn't think about at Calgary's tax rate.

Instead of being envious about what commodities are or are not available underneath the ground in our province, we are better off creating a more equalized tax system between the City and Province which involves raising property taxes to approach the Canadian average and reducing income taxes on middle and low earners, forcing new developments to pay some of their growth costs, and finding transportation solutions that suit our fiscal and geographical reality as opposed to shiny over-built systems we don't need yet or shoddy under-built systems that are penny-wise and pound-foolish.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by Biff

I hate piling on and sounding negative, as I truly love Winnipeg, but man…downtown Calgary is clean. Here on business and just walking around. The tall buildings are nice and all, but the city is just so clean and well kept. City workers out cleaning and line painting last night at 11:00 pm, watering trees and just general upkeep.

Sigh!

Sounds like Disneyland / Disney world where everything is refreshed as needed at night so everything looks pristine during the day

[borkborkbork]

It really feels like a death spiral:

1 Cut the services that keep the city clean and liveable

2 Drive individuals to move out of the city into RMs and discourage firms from opening or expanding here

3 Tax base shrinks

4 return to 1 and repeat

[trueviking]

I’m in Europe and can’t believe there are humans living like this. I will come home to a city that is becoming increasingly unliveable, is falling apart at the seams and still believes its biggest priority is to spend 7% of its tax dollars on making sure people who live in a distant suburb can drive home a couple minutes faster.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I'm living in Montreal for 2 months. And my word it is like I'm in a completely different universe. The row house walk-up things are everywhere and the neighbourghoods are awesome. I'm living in Saint Henri. So while they are not the most affordable, they are more affordable then some of the other around Sherbrooke. Gorgeous places.

Staying in Downtown Montreal right now and couldn’t agree more. I went out all the way to Agrignon the other day and you still see very few single-family houses and that’s at the edge of the island.

Having experienced both Europe and Montreal this year I really want to do my best in implementing what’s successful over their and translate it here. It also reaffirms my belief that if we start doing the right urban design maneuvers Winnipeg could have as much potential as any mid-sized city in North America. I mean just imagine if we even had a street like St. Catherine’s in the Downtown. The bones are already here.

Thankfully I have finally graduated so hopefully I can start making tangible changes starting with my new job at Bike Winnipeg when I get back.

[wags_in_the_peg]

what's the cost of running 1 sidewalk cleaner or a a small crew just to pick up garbage 24/7? it wouldn't be that much and would make such a significant difference in downtown and surrounding areas. it seems like we wait till June or july when the green teams get hired for 2 months, that should be a 12 month year thing

[WinCitySparky]

Winnipeg is a failed city guys, you’re not imagining things! But maybe one day it will be better. Not now though.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I’m in Europe and can’t believe there are humans living like this. I will come home to a city that is becoming increasingly unliveable, is falling apart at the seams and still believes its biggest priority is to spend 7% of its tax dollars on making sure people who live in a distant suburb can drive home a couple minutes faster.

Guaranteed that city you’re in predates the automobile but still manages to have at least one major freeway, connected with autoroutes that are full out freeways. You can’t even drive across the province here without hitting lights. Ohh and the city you’re in probably has an efficient public transportation system too.

You think saving five minutes is bad? Think about the cost to drivers, in fuel and time, think about the cost to the environment of 70,000 plus cars running and idling for ten minutes longer everyday. Think about our transportation industry and how that affects their costs, and times. All along route 90 there are trucking businesses and multiple industrial and commercial zones, all require trucks to keep the flow of goods and materials going and this city’s piss poor planning costs them all dearly.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Staying in Downtown Montreal right now and couldn’t agree more. I went out all the way to Agrignon the other day and you still see very few single-family houses and that’s at the edge of the island.

Having experienced both Europe and Montreal this year I really want to do my best in implementing what’s successful over their and translate it here. It also reaffirms my belief that if we start doing the right urban design maneuvers Winnipeg could have as much potential as any mid-sized city in North America. I mean just imagine if we even had a street like St. Catherine’s in the Downtown. The bones are already here.

Thankfully I have finally graduated so hopefully I can start making tangible changes starting with my new job at Bike Winnipeg when I get back.

Congratulations on graduating and on landing the new gig, Mr. Geek. I'm glad that you will be using your intelligence and passion to help make the city a better place!

[GreyGarden]

Yes, congratulations thebasketballgeek! It is genuinely heartening to see people with an actual passion and interest for urbanism move into these types of organizations. Best of luck.