The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Most of the early transit planners (from the 50's on) agree that building on Bloor was their biggest mistake. This is not coming from me, I'm basing it on what they said, apparently Queen was identified as the better alignment.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toro...-age-of-toronto-transit/article34321708/


“We did very good things – on time, on budget – but we made big politically driven errors back then, too. Building a subway [Spadina] on an expressway median was a huge one. Putting the Queen subway on Bloor has turned out to be a mistake.”

“Precisely,” says Mr. Levy, jumping in. Mr. Levy, a planner, engineer and author of Rapid Transit in Toronto, A Century of Plans, Projects, Politics and Paralysis, says that great cities that have been able to sustainably expand subways kept building from the middle out (and they didn’t tunnel in low-density areas).

By not doing Queen right after Yonge, “we missed a crucial starting point for network-building. We’ve never been able to get back to a logical order,” Mr. Levy says. “Call it the Queen line, relief line, whatever, the whole GTA has needed this piece of infrastructure for decades, but politicians keep wasting scarce capital on frills and vote buying.”

“Toronto’s biggest transit problem,” says Mr. Crowley, who specializes in data analysis, travel market research and demand forecasting, “is we’ve overloaded core parts of the subway. We’d basically done that on lower Yonge 30 years ago, when I was still at the TTC. We have to relearn the importance of downtown to the whole region, the whole country. We’re in danger of killing the golden goose.”

Your evidence doesn't support "most". I count two people agreeing it was a mistake. I can probably find as many that will agree the subway on Bloor was the right move and not continue with supplementary east/west lines ( like the underground Queen streetcar) was the mistake.

[niwell]

^I meant to comment on that when originally posted as well. I read the G&M article and it's a pretty ahistoric take on the situation compared to almost everything else I've seen. If anything, putting the original E-W subway on Bloor was far more forward thinking than if it were on Queen. It allows for cross-town travel in a manner that other systems like Chicago do not (having to go to the Loop for everything is a huge pain).

The mistake wasn't building an additional E-W line on Queen or King afterwards.

[WhipperSnapper]

Everything I've read about the streetcar on Bloor predating the subway suggests it was much more heavily utilized than the Queen Streetcar. It was pretty much bursting at the seams with no room for additonal capacity. An entire fleet of aging streetcars could be retired once the Bloor subway opened. 65 years later with the knowledge only one east/west line would be built, perhaps it would have made more sense to have a Queen Subway or a redirected Bloor subway that heads south into the core to avoid the Yonge transfer but, that doesn't make the decisions made during the industrial age of Toronto a mistake. This was the peak of industry in Toronto. The central business district was completely engulfed by warehousing and light manufacturing. I don't think it's fair to say they should have predicted that ALL of that would disappear within a couple generations to be replaced by densely packed office skyscrapers and commuter based transit planning.

[niwell]

Yeah they were running doubled up PCCs at incredibly short headways and couldn't keep up at all. Bloor was the main link to residential suburbs in Etobicoke and areas east of the Don.


Blogto.com


A "U" shaped route that heads down around Landsowne and up again at Parliamnent or so could have made sense but probably would have cost a lot more and ended up serving fewer people. Having bus routes go down to Queen would be even more of a disaster for timing than they are now too.

The only scenario I can envision where a Queen line first makes sense is if they built it concurrent with Yonge in the 50s, and then built the Bloor line on the current timeline.

[caltrane74]

Glad they built the Bloor Subway.

[swimmer_spe]

They decided to build the Bloor line because of the bridge over the Don valley.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

65 years later with the knowledge only one east/west line would be built, ...

Actually, I think the challenge is there are 2 major East/West routes; one subway and the other GO Transit. GO Transit being the one that executives and other decision making and high salary staff were more likely to use by the early 70's. Coupled with the highways (DVP didn't have funding when Line 2 design began) it locked things down tightly around Union in a way that couldn't be predicted in '58 when Line 2 got approval.

If, by chance, GO service used the CP corridor instead of Lake Shore, or wasn't created at all, Toronto would have a very different commuter pattern today.

[WhipperSnapper]

What a disaster that would have been if North Toronto Station became the premier commuter hub. I have my doubts an alternate universe even exists with that arrangement.

[Bobert]

Both major rail projects in the greater Vancouver are are now fully funded. Regardless of ndp or liberal governments after the election.

[LeftCoaster]

When did the municipalities/translink promise to throw in their 20%?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by niwell

A "U" shaped route that heads down around Landsowne and up again at Parliamnent or so could have made sense but probably would have cost a lot more and ended up serving fewer people. Having bus routes go down to Queen would be even more of a disaster for timing than they are now too.

The only scenario I can envision where a Queen line first makes sense is if they built it concurrent with Yonge in the 50s, and then built the Bloor line on the current timeline.

In the 1950s, the Metro Toronto Planning Board proposed a Queen subway that would have been a "Flying U":



Source

In other words, while they were acknowleding the importance of a crosstown line further north along Bloor, they also were acknowledging that the primary east-west street into the core was Queen.

I think this plan, if realized, would have been quickly followed by a subway connecting the two parts of the U along Bloor. Given how the TTC pulled the plug on interlining the University and Bloor lines, I would have expected that they would have severed the U from the Bloor lines in short order.

In other words, it's possible that we could have had a DRL 50 years ago.

[jigglysquishy]

Originally Posted by Bobert

Both major rail projects in the greater Vancouver are are now fully funded. Regardless of ndp or liberal governments after the election.

Phenomenol news.

Took forever to get that Broadway commitment, but it's the most needed transit project in the Lower Mainland.

Next project, UBC!

[Bobert]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

When did the municipalities/translink promise to throw in their 20%?

Hmm looking around it seems like this is still a missing piece. I was under the impression that the local funding had been secured. Regardless they now are accountable for 7% less than they were yesterday.

[Horus]

GO RER gets closer...

From The Star

Ottawa to invest $1.9B in GO Transit’s regional express rail project
Under the regional express rail program, GO plans to electrify trains on its busiest routes and implement all-day, two-way service at frequencies of every 15 minutes or better.

By BEN SPURR Transportation Reporter
Fri., March 31, 2017

The federal Liberals will invest $1.9 billion in GO Transit’s regional express rail program, the prime minister announced Friday.

Speaking at a press event at the Willowbrook GO yard in south Etobicoke with the premier and federal infrastructure minister, Justin Trudeau said Ottawa would contribute to the program, which over the next 10 years will increase service on GO lines throughout the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

The province has estimated the cost of regional express rail (RER) at $13.5 billion, and had previously committed to paying the full cost. Trudeau said the price tag on the initiative makes RER “the single largest transit project in which the federal government has ever invested.”

“These funds will help improve the lives of millions of Ontarians by making sure that students make it on time to their first job interview, that parents make it home early to help their kids with their homework, that families enjoy what their communities have to offer, whenever they want,” he said.

The money will flow through the New Building Canada Fund, which was set up by the previous Conservative government.

Under RER, GO plans to electrify trains and implement all-day, two-way service at frequencies of every 15 minutes or better on its busiest routes. The agency will also quadruple the number of trains operating outside weekday rush hours, double the number of trips during weekday rush hours, and build up to 12 new stations, including up to six stops as part of Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack plan.
Under a deal council agreed to last November, the city is responsible for the cost of the SmartTrack infrastructure, however.

More than $750 million of the $1.9 billion in federal funding will go toward upgrades on the Kitchener GO corridor, and will help pay for work that includes grading, bridge and station modifications, and the construction of about 40 kilometres of new track.

The remainder of the funds will be split between the Barrie, Lakeshore East, and Lakeshore West corridors, and will contribute to upgrades that include 88 kilometres of new track.

Premier Kathleen Wynne said that taking into account RER and other planned investments in the GO network, the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area is in the midst of “the largest commuter rail transformation in Canada.” GO plans to spend $21.3 billion on upgrades and new service over the coming years.

Wynne said because of the new federal funding “the province now has the ability to invest even more in other priority transit projects that will improve people’s commutes.”

Provincial officials said it was too early to say which projects the province could use the freed up money to fund.

Fielding questions from reporters, Trudeau also defended his government’s decision to eliminate the 15-per-cent tax credit for public transit passes. The decision, which the Liberals announced last week as part of the federal budget, has been criticized by some transit users and raised concerns about the possible negative impact on TTC ridership.

Trudeau said that his government is “committed to evidence-based policy” and there was no indication that the “boutique tax credit” had its intended effect of increasing transit ridership. He also argued that because the credit is non-refundable it didn’t benefit low-income people who don’t earn enough to pay federal income tax.

“So we feel that investing more money in the things that are actually going to help people is exactly what Canadians expect of this government,” Trudeau said, claiming that “no government in the history of Canada has invested as much in public transit as we have.”

The prime minister also announced Friday that Ottawa has approved over 300 additional projects in Ontario for funding under the first phase of the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund. According to the 2017 budget, under the second phase of the fund the government plans to spend more than $20 billion on transit over the next decade.

[caltrane74]

That money is also indirectly funding Tory's SmartTrack plan. 6 new stops for SmartTrack, all the city has to do is come up with money for the remaining stations and adding addition frequently in the 416.

[nephersir7]

First time I see one of the STM's fast-charge electric buses.



http://www.stm.info/en/about/major_projects/bus-network-electrification/city-mobility

[1overcosc]

Speaking of Montreal I was there a couple weeks ago and took a ride on one of the new Azur metro trains. Very spiffy.

[niwell]

The City of Toronto's new recommended alignment for the Downtown Relief Line through Leslieville:





http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/04/new-...e-alignment-identified-under-leslieville

It's been shifted from under Pape to Carlaw largely based on what was heard during public consultation. Although slightly more expensive the rationale does actually make sense to me. The main concern seems to be relocation of a sewer main along Carlaw.

This new recommended alignment is scheduled to go before the Executive Committee on May 16th, and then before City Council on May 24th. Should the new alignment be approved, it will be integrated into the Relief Line Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP) document, due to be complete in Fall 2017.

[TorontoDrew]

Start digging. This will put 2 subway stops within 4 mins walk of my front door. And ya, Carlaw makes way more sense then Pape. That section of Pape is pure residential where as that section of Carlaw is all mid rise and work lofts.

[WhipperSnapper]

Pape is also a narrow residential street. The station construction would be awful for owners. I do prefer the station alignment under Gerrard Square but, why wouldn't they build a tunnel to replace the overhead crossing anyways?