Broadway Corridor Updates

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Any novel about Victorian London will explain why letting the free market build your city for you is a bad idea. It's always got to be a mix of public and private.

Are you sincerely comparing allowing 20 storey buildings in WPG to the laissez faire attitude of allowing dirty factories anywhere as was the case in Victorian London? Be serious.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A few blocks of lowrises = one block of highrises. And if you don't count the 50k+ units' worth of redevelopment along Cambie and Central Broadway as highrises, we are definitely in different worlds. We are in the middle of the most construction in Vancouver's history.

I'm sure the Politburo was surprised that the Soviet Union collapsed when all the farms and factories were meeting their production quotas.

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Are you sincerely comparing allowing 20 storey buildings in WPG to the laissez faire attitude of allowing dirty factories anywhere as was the case in Victorian London? Be serious.

To some people, any market deregulation at all is kowtowing to the capitalist elites who will bring in a new laissez-faire robber baron era.

[jollyburger]

Back in 2022 a UBC extension report for COV included this:

Limiting Land Speculation
In 2019, Council approved an amendment to the Development Contribution Expectation (DCE) policy intended to limit land value speculation for the portion of the Broadway Corridor not covered by the previously approved DCE policy for the Broadway Plan area. These policies provide buyers and sellers of land in areas anticipating rapid transit investment with clarity regarding the City’s priorities in areas undergoing community planning and expectations for contributions towards amenities and affordable housing as a result of community planning. At this point staff do not foresee a need to adjust the DCE that is currently in place. A future comprehensive planning program for the area west of Vine Street will explore and determine future land use policies and is likely to prioritize rental and affordable housing, job space and community amenities. When the announcement of defined station locations is made and/or when a future land use planning program for this area is launched, staff would come back to Council with an updated DCE.

Planning for Station Integration with Development
Station sites are significant place-making opportunities within the city as they have a long design service life and are located at key intersections in the heart of many of Vancouver’s neighbourhoods. Integration of development with the stations presents numerous benefits such
as the opportunity to provide job space, housing and public amenities to support future planning
objectives and policies. There is also a significant partnership opportunity to leverage investment in station sites amongst various levels of government. Locating jobs, housing, services and amenities with transit also increases movement by active travel modes which helps to support the City’s Climate Emergency Action Plan and the Province’s CleanBC plan.

The Council approved BSP Principles and Strategies reinforced the project vision of stations integrated with development. Important lessons have been learned from the recent BSP design development experience.

BSP includes examples of station integration with new developments (e.g. South Granville and Great Northern Way – Emily Carr Stations). However, achieving integration can be challenging; the design development process by partner agencies (TransLink and the Province) creates station design reference concepts early in the process that typically set the project funding envelope. Once the envelope is set and the projects reach detailed design development stages and move into construction phases, it is much more difficult, and often too late, to make significant changes which would enable overbuild and station integration.

When not contemplated in the early stages of a project, development over the stations can be complex and add significant costs to building construction. This could mean that development integrated with the station is delayed or opportunities are missed altogether.

More detailed work on the broader corridor will build off the direction currently contemplated in the Vancouver Plan and will come in the future through a comprehensive land use plan.

However, it is critical that staff begin considering the integration of new stations with development in advance of this planning work. This work could include exploring:

• station location, layout and configuration,
• sizing of public realm outside of stations,
• provisions for various development integration scenarios,
• multimodal connectivity, and;
• accommodating essential transit system infrastructure.

Staff are seeking Council endorsement to work with project partners including the Province, TransLink and others to identify what might be required to achieve better outcomes in terms of station integration with development and contribute towards shared design objectives such as enhanced connectivity, accessibility, passenger amenities as well as a vibrant public realm.

If and when the Project receives a firm commitment to proceed, staff would then seek Council approval to undertake a comprehensive land use planning program to explore opportunities to integrate new development, transportation improvements and other city building opportunities associated with the transit investment.

https://council.vancouver.ca/20220323/documents/r1.pdf

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Are you sincerely comparing allowing 20 storey buildings in WPG to the laissez faire attitude of allowing dirty factories anywhere as was the case in Victorian London? Be serious.

Yes, be serious. Why not allow them in Kerrisdale, since it's going to get a streetcar any day now?

Order of operations, people. Broadway didn't get the existing towers overnight either.

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'm sure the Politburo was surprised that the Soviet Union collapsed when all the farms and factories were meeting their production quotas.

To some people, any market deregulation at all is kowtowing to the capitalist elites who will bring in a new laissez-faire robber baron era.

Any evidence of City Hall staff or developers misrepresenting their numbers to please the bosses? That's a serious accusation.

Indeed. We already had that under Gregor Robertson, Gordon Campbell and Christy Clark, which is part of why we're here in the first place.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Back in 2022 a UBC extension report for COV included this:

I don't think there was ever any doubt this was going to happen. It just seems like the typical status-quo political move to kick this down the road and wait for the final approval rather than start this planning today.

[Feathered Friend]

Rezoning Application RZ-2024-00073

Application Date: Jul, 26, 2024
Permit Location: 1125 W 10TH AVENUE, Vancouver, BC V6H 1J2

Work Description: 1125 W 10th Ave - Application recently submitted. Staff preparing notification - To rezone from RM-3 to CD-1 under the Broadway Plan (Sub-Area FSOA) to allow for the development of a 17-storey mixed-use rental building with ground floor commercial and 128 units where 20% is secured as below-market rental units. An FSR of 7.7 and a building height of 51.5 m (169 ft.) are proposed.

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public...ctId=237381655

Rezoning Application RZ-2024-00069

Application Date: Jul, 22, 2024
Permit Location: 44 E 13TH AVENUE, Vancouver, BC V5T 4K7

Work Description: 44 E 13th Ave - Application recently submitted. Staff preparing notification - To rezone from RM-4 to CD-1 under the Broadway Plan (Sub-Area MSAB) to allow for the development of a 21-storey mixed-use rental building over a six-storey podium with ground floor commercial and 200 rental units including 20% delivered at below market rates . An FSR of 6.3 and a building height of 66.4 m (218 ft.) are proposed.

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public...ctId=237381655

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yes, be serious. Why not allow them in Kerrisdale, since it's going to get a streetcar any day now?

YES. Kerrisdale is extremely well serviced by transit. Are you joking?

Order of operations, people. Broadway didn't get the existing towers overnight either.

I'm with BaddieB here, do you think the current towers along the Broadway corridor were all built after the Broadway Extension was confirmed and fully funded?

Any evidence of City Hall staff or developers lying to please their bosses? That's a serious accusation.

Are you seriously trying to imply that the Soviet economy would have been fine if everyone was telling the truth? It doesn't even matter, they had an all time high GDP at the time of collapse, yet they had supply issues with common goods for some reason... I wonder why?

Indeed. We already had that under Gregor Robertson, Gordon Campbell and Christy Clark, which is part of why we're here in the first place.

So even Gregor Robinson's Vision Vancouver are laissez faire capitalists now... Everything's laissez faire compared to command economies I guess.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A few blocks of lowrises or missing middle = one block of highrises - that's how basement suites created more density than all of Brentwood and Metrotown.

And if you don't count Jericho and the 50k+ units' worth of redevelopment along Cambie and Central Broadway as quota, we are definitely in different worlds. We are in the middle of the most residential planning and construction in the history of the densest city in Canada.

Adding more buildable density in more places helps with land economics. Could reduce current pressure and more feasible projects longterm in Broadway Plan area

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Adding more buildable density in more places helps with land economics. Could reduce current pressure and more feasible projects longterm in Broadway Plan area

No, developers need to let the central committee determine the socially necessary density. Just adding buildable density without a democratic worker's state is laissez faire capitalism.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Were you here for the Surrey streetcar? Linda Hepner and Surrey First intentionally underbuilt the train and overzoned the density in order to maximize profit. The whole thing was their attempt to imitate Metrotown's condo rush for a song, and the end result would've been too many people on too small a rapid transit line; that's why Surrey First isn't in charge anymore.

You said yourself that ABC rubber stamps most developments; 2031 is far too pessimistic. Once the SkyTrain comes, you can have all the 20-floors you want (maybe even 40 floors at the stations). Pass a zoning plan now? We'll get an average of 10 floors - because that's what the 99 can handle.

Sure. And that's why it's "a few buildings" at a time for now.



And the Province isn't moving until the SkyTrain is.

The difference for Surrey was the technology was unknown, and the route was unknown. With UBCx it will be Skytrain, and we know it's going under Broadway. No surprises. They're not really comparable at all. Even then, SoF is building massive dense areas like in Willoughby that have no future of Skytrain in the horizon, precisely because the core of vancouver isn't building enough

I agree with the sentiment to not build dense where there will not be transit to handle it. WPG is not one of these scenarios, and in fact allowing density there will prevent reckless development elsewhere with no future of Skytrain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

- snip -

41st is well-serviced by transit and should be upzoned. Let me know when 49th or Arbutus get a train (or at least a BRT), otherwise Kerrisdale receives the same lowrise treatment West 4th did in the Broadway Plan.

I think that Broadway Plaza, Frank Stanzl, Fairmont Medical, Holiday Inn and the various condos came in one by one over the course of three decades and all without an OCP... which, according to you, is an inadequate scale and timeframe for the rest of Broadway.

There's some things the public sector does well, and there's some things the private sector does well. Funny how the supply and logistics of Walmart and Amazon now look and act like a planned economy...

What do you call spot zonings and overpriced condos marketed exclusively to East Asian offshore buyers? He gave the NIMBYs a decade's worth of ammo.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

The difference for Surrey was the technology was unknown, and the route was unknown. With UBCx it will be Skytrain, and we know it's going under Broadway. No surprises. They're not really comparable at all. Even then, SoF is building massive dense areas like in Williughby that have no future in the horizon, precisely because the core of vancouver isn't building enough

Quite the contrary, in response to the growth in Langley along 208th Translink has made BRT between Langley City and Maple Ridge along 208th a priority. Funny how that happens, isn't it?

I agree with the sentiment to not build dense where there will not be transitbto handle it. WPG is not one of these scenarios, and in fact allowing density there will prevent reckless development elsewhere with no future of Skytrain.

We live in Vancouver for Christ's sake, this isn't Houston. We have an amazing transit system that only wants more ridership and other than West Broadway between Clark and Arbutus, there is sufficient space to increase service. And in the one place right now where we can't increase service, we're building a Skytrain line.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

41st is well-serviced by transit and should be upzoned. Let me know when 49th or Arbutus get a RapidBus, otherwise it's getting the same lowrise treatment West 4th did in the Broadway Plan.

I'm convinced you're trolling at this point. The 49 and 16 busses have two of the best service levels in the region.

I think that Broadway Plaza, Frank Stanzl, Fairmont Medical, Holiday Inn and the various condos came in one by one over the course of three decades and all without an OCP... which, according to you, is an inadequate scale and timeframe for the rest of Broadway.

Yet somehow they were legal to build... Something tells me you those are inadequate scale for you in Kits too.

There's some things the public sector does well, and there's some things the private sector does well. Funny how the supply and logistics of Walmart and Amazon now look and act like a planned economy...

Oh god, the "business are planned economies" argument. BaddieB was right, you're not serious.

What do you call spot zonings and overpriced condos marketed exclusively to East Asian offshore buyers? He gave the NIMBYs a decade's worth of ammo.

Spot rezonings... the classic laissez faire policy...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

The difference for Surrey was the technology was unknown, and the route was unknown. With UBCx it will be Skytrain, and we know it's going under Broadway. No surprises. They're not really comparable at all. Even then, SoF is building massive dense areas like in Willoughby that have no future of Skytrain in the horizon, precisely because the core of vancouver isn't building enough

I agree with the sentiment to not build dense where there will not be transit to handle it. WPG is not one of these scenarios, and in fact allowing density there will prevent reckless development elsewhere with no future of Skytrain.

Not true - BRT, LRT or RRT, it was the exact same route and stations for all three.

And Surrey's building big because a lot of people are moving there because it's cheaper. Solve the housing crisis tomorrow, and Vancouver will still be more expensive than Surrey.

No, because all the developers capable of building towers are busy with downtown, Broadway, Cambie and/or the town centres; we're already hitting a ceiling with those.
You could make an argument about channelling the small-time developers who build rowhouses/duplexes/quadplexes, but Greektown and WPG are already zoned for those, and if they aren't lured by UBCx already, they likely won't even with an OCP.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

- snip -

Says somebody who's never waited for a 16 or 49 - an entire corridor of towers fed by one trolley bus? Now you're trolling. Come back when there's 5 minutes or better FTN service along the whole corridor like Broadway has, and then we can talk about twenty floors throughout. West 4th has that, and even they're only zoned for low/midrises... which Kerrisdale is building as we speak.

If they're legal to build, then what's the problem? As with Central Broadway, you start with a few small towers with the B-Line (e.g. Alma), then work your way up to 40+ floors when the SkyTrain comes in.

Check out The People's Republic of Walmart. It's VERY serious.

Grand Bargain in action - maximizes property values and developer fees, screws everybody else. Better to spread the density around too.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Check out The People's Republic of Walmart. It's VERY serious.

There's nothing more for us to discuss. I wish you luck in your pursuit of a democratic socialist workers' state komrade (not).

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Quite the contrary, in response to the growth in Langley along 208th Translink has made BRT between Langley City and Maple Ridge along 208th a priority. Funny how that happens, isn't it?

Along 200th, and it is also that even if it wasn't even BRT but a full on Skytrain, the area is still go far from everything it would take over an hour just to reach Vancouver. It's just unnecessary sprawl because for so long Vancouver was zoned far below demand.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

There's nothing more for us to discuss. I wish you luck in your pursuit of a democratic socialist workers' state komrade (not).

To each their own. Best of luck electing United or the Cons to recreate the Night City ancap mess they left us (not).

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Along 200th, and it is also that even if it wasn't even BRT but a full on Skytrain, the area is still go far from everything it would take over an hour just to reach Vancouver. It's just unnecessary sprawl because for so long Vancouver was zoned far below demand.

^ What they said. Development-oriented transit (instead of the other way around) is the tail wagging the dog.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

To each their own. Best of luck electing United or the Cons to recreate the Night City ancap mess they left us (not).

Even the BCNDP have been working to lessen the effects the municipal central committees on housing, and if you think that the Gordon Campbell and Christie Clark eras were "ancap", well I guess I never realised how far you really were.

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Along 200th, and it is also that even if it wasn't even BRT but a full on Skytrain, the area is still go far from everything it would take over an hour just to reach Vancouver. It's just unnecessary sprawl because for so long Vancouver was zoned far below demand.

We're straying from the Broadway discussion, but Vancouver isn't an American city. A long time ago we decided to be more like an Asian/European city with respect to having regional town centres instead of a primarch downtown. The Langley suburbs are a long-ass way away from downtown Vancouver, but they have absolutely adequate access to downtown Surrey and Langley.

In a perfect world we wouldn't be holding a pillow over the face of development in Vancouver, but I don't agree that Langley is too far from anything to be a reasonable area for development, especially with the Surrey Langley Skytrain on the way.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Says somebody who's never waited for a 16 or 49 - an entire corridor of towers fed by one trolley bus? Now you're trolling. Come back when there's 5 minutes or better FTN service along the whole corridor like Broadway has, and then we can talk about twenty floors throughout. West 4th has that, and even they're only zoned for low/midrises... which Kerrisdale is building as we speak.

Begging you to understand that 1. It would take a long time for the area to become a sea of towers and 2. Bus service can be increased on the 16 and 4. The West End has the 5 and 6 which surprise surprise are not overcrowded because even though there are tall buildings everywhere, the frequency is high enough to handle it. (The 23 was decent until a diploma mill opened up which has caused an overnight surge in busyness, but translink is responding by improving capacity).