Overhauling Amtrak

[TowerDude]

For the Gateway Tunnel, they will dig and assemble the new tunnels and then rehab the old tunnels, eventually resulting in four tunnels under the Hudson.

The long term plans for the Portal Bridges over the Hackensack River are for there to be a Portal North and a Portal South Bridge giving four tracks over the river.

Is there a possibility that when the Portal North Bridge is finished, to continue to use the old bridge as the 3rd and 4th tracks until the Portal South Bridge is completed?

[202_Cyclist]

Amtrak begins Susquehanna River Rail Bridge Project in northeast Maryland
The project will ensure continued connectivity along the Northeast Corridor while enabling plans to expand intercity passenger rail service in the region and across the U.S.

July 24, 2024
Mass Transit


Photo courtesy of Mass Transit.

"Amtrak has begun the Susquehanna River Rail Bridge Project in northeast Maryland. The Susquehanna River Rail Bridge is a vital piece of infrastructure that serves approximately 110 daily Amtrak, MARC commuter rail and freight trains. The $2.7 billion project, supported by the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, will ensure continued connectivity along the Northeast Corridor (NEC) while enabling plans to expand intercity passenger rail service in the region and across the U.S.

“Amtrak is excited to kick off early work on this important bridge upgrade, one of several major Amtrak infrastructure megaprojects now underway or set to begin by the end of 2024,” said Amtrak CEO Stephen Gardner. “Thanks to funding from the Infrastructure Investment & Jobs Act, continued support from the Biden-Harris Administration and Congress and strong coordination with our partners, Amtrak is advancing a new era of passenger rail with state-of-the-art bridges, tunnels and trains on the way..."

https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/...heast-maryland

[TowerDude]

Here's an Amtrak-adjacent reform that I think would greatly benefit Amtrak.

The Federal Government should take over Greyhound and turn it into the same kind of public-private transit corporation as Amtrak. Amtrak and Greyhound should also work to connect Greyhound bus depots to Amtrak train stations and have code sharing for ticketing. Other essential but financially stressed long distance bus lines should also be integrated into the new federal Greyhound.

Any Greyhound depot that is farther away than 2 miles from an Amtrak station should, where feasible, be relocated to the train station. After this system is stood up, the existing Amtrak bus lines should be absorbed into the new Greyhound.

Amtrak stations far from the urban cores of many cities could then be connected to downtown via this Greyhound network.

A federal takeover of Greyhound would allow essential long distance bus routes to remain in operation faster than the US government standing up a new national bus line from scratch, and would also mirror how Amtrak was founded taking over existing passenger rail operations.

[Paniolo Man]

Amtrak extended the bidding window for the LD fleet replacement to November after receiving no bids in May.

Just though that little bit of info may be relevant here.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by TowerDude

Here's an Amtrak-adjacent reform that I think would greatly benefit Amtrak.

The Federal Government should take over Greyhound and turn it into the same kind of public-private transit corporation as Amtrak. Amtrak and Greyhound should also work to connect Greyhound bus depots to Amtrak train stations and have code sharing for ticketing. Other essential but financially stressed long distance bus lines should also be integrated into the new federal Greyhound.

Any Greyhound depot that is farther away than 2 miles from an Amtrak station should, where feasible, be relocated to the train station. After this system is stood up, the existing Amtrak bus lines should be absorbed into the new Greyhound.

Amtrak stations far from the urban cores of many cities could then be connected to downtown via this Greyhound network.

A federal takeover of Greyhound would allow essential long distance bus routes to remain in operation faster than the US government standing up a new national bus line from scratch, and would also mirror how Amtrak was founded taking over existing passenger rail operations.

AmeriBus

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

Amtrak extended the bidding window for the LD fleet replacement to November after receiving no bids in May.

Just though that little bit of info may be relevant here.

I can't wade through all the conversations on Reddit or the Amtrak forum. Could you lay out exactly what they latest is with this. Are they going for bi-level or single level? What do you think explains the lack of interest in this RFP? Do you sense there's hesitation to work with Amtrak with all the customizations and the web of Buy America requirements or is that not a factor?

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by TowerDude

Here's an Amtrak-adjacent reform that I think would greatly benefit Amtrak.

The Federal Government should take over Greyhound and turn it into the same kind of public-private transit corporation as Amtrak. Amtrak and Greyhound should also work to connect Greyhound bus depots to Amtrak train stations and have code sharing for ticketing. Other essential but financially stressed long distance bus lines should also be integrated into the new federal Greyhound.

Any Greyhound depot that is farther away than 2 miles from an Amtrak station should, where feasible, be relocated to the train station. After this system is stood up, the existing Amtrak bus lines should be absorbed into the new Greyhound.

Amtrak stations far from the urban cores of many cities could then be connected to downtown via this Greyhound network.

A federal takeover of Greyhound would allow essential long distance bus routes to remain in operation faster than the US government standing up a new national bus line from scratch, and would also mirror how Amtrak was founded taking over existing passenger rail operations.

I meant to respond to this the other day.

I don't know how wise or successful any attempt to nationalize a private, for-profit LD bus operator would be. Nationalising infrastructure, like rail which I advocate for is one thing, but the freight railroads would still remain private under that scenario, just working under a leased access model. Plus I'm not opposed to the notion of private passenger operations.

What may actually accomplish the goals you are describing would be working hand in hand with the USPS to create an American Postbus.

[Paniolo Man]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I can't wade through all the conversations on Reddit or the Amtrak forum. Could you lay out exactly what they latest is with this. Are they going for bi-level or single level? What do you think explains the lack of interest in this RFP? Do you sense there's hesitation to work with Amtrak with all the customizations and the web of Buy America requirements or is that not a factor?

Amtrak issued the RFP to 6 qualified bidders a few days before Christmas last year. Stadler, Siemens, CAF, Alstom, Kawasaki, and Hitachi made the cut.

The technical specification in the RFP are 1400 pages long with an absurd level of detail. They call for Bilevels with a core consist of semi-permanently coupled cars and add-on cars at either end for capacity.

The design kills the SSL as a concept and splits it into a "First Class Lounge" on the upper level of a sleeper with a bar and seating for sleeper passengers and a Cafe taking a small portion of the upper level in one of the coaches. I'm not a huge fan of this change.

The bidding window initially was to close back in May, but no bids were received and several manufacturers requested the deadline be extended. As of now the new deadline is November.

Here is a link to the first 1000 pages of the technical specifications.

Here is a link to the rest of the technical specification pages.

Extensive discussion of the car designs can be found on the AmtrakTrains forum thread on the topic.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I meant to respond to this the other day.

I don't know how wise or successful any attempt to nationalize a private, for-profit LD bus operator would be. Nationalising infrastructure, like rail which I advocate for is one thing, but the freight railroads would still remain private under that scenario, just working under a leased access model. Plus I'm not opposed to the notion of private passenger operations.

What may actually accomplish the goals you are describing would be working hand in hand with the USPS to create an American Postbus.

I agree. There are already numerous private intercity bus operators that presumably operate at a profit. Also, Amtrak operates some connecting bus service.

One thing that could be beneficial, however, is if Amtrak partnered with some of these private bus operators to align schedules and allow people to book a seamless connection through the Amtrak website. For example, booking a train ticket to Wilmington, DE, and then aligning bus schedules for a trip to the Delaware beaches would add value.

https://www.amtrak.com/thruway-conne...l-destinations

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

Amtrak issued the RFP to 6 qualified bidders a few days before Christmas last year. Stadler, Siemens, CAF, Alstom, Kawasaki, and Hitachi made the cut.

The bidding window initially was to close back in May, but no bids were received and several manufacturers requested the deadline be extended. As of now the new deadline is November.

Good - I'm glad the industry is pushing back on some of these insane procurements. This is basically (or literally?) all of the qualified railcar manufacturers in the US who took a hard pass.

If the past is any guide, hopefully Amtrak will toss their spec in the trash and let manufacturers propose something that actually makes sense. This is how we got the Siemens Ventures, Metra's Alstom bilevels, (maybe) the Airo, etc.

[Busy Bee]

^ Do we really know if Amtrak specs are "insane" though or the RFP parties just need more time before figuring out their numbers? This isn't unheard of to extend and RFP for complicated rolling stock purchases here or internationally.

[aprice1828]

deleted

[202_Cyclist]

Arches for NJ Transit's new Portal rail bridge will be barged down the Hudson

James M. O'Neill
NorthJersey.com
August 30, 2024


Photo via NorthJersey.com.


"NJ Transit President and CEO Kevin Corbett recently toured a port near Albany, New York, where the Portal Arches, part of the new North Portal Bridge, are being built and assembled.

The new rail bridge will replace the current 114-year-old swing bridge, which spans the Hackensack River between Kearny and Secaucus.

The old bridge must periodically open for barges and other river traffic, which causes delays for NJ Transit and Amtrak trains headed to and from Manhattan’s Penn Station, along the busiest stretch of passenger rail in the country. The old bridge sometimes gets stuck in the open position, further causing delays..."

https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...r/74999418007/

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I meant to respond to this the other day.

I don't know how wise or successful any attempt to nationalize a private, for-profit LD bus operator would be. Nationalising infrastructure, like rail which I advocate for is one thing, but the freight railroads would still remain private under that scenario, just working under a leased access model. Plus I'm not opposed to the notion of private passenger operations.

What may actually accomplish the goals you are describing would be working hand in hand with the USPS to create an American Postbus.

I strongly believe government should stay out of the way of private enterprise as much as possible. It should only step in, in the most minimalistic way possible, when private enterprise is failing completely. As long as there is one enterprise earning a profit in that market, let it continue. As long as other bus companies, even just regionally, is working, the government should stay out of that market.
Initially, all the local bus, streetcars, interurbans, and passenger railroads were private enterprises. Only as local transit providers failed, with no competitors entering the market, did cities "citified" them. Some were "regionalized". Some were allowed to die and fade away. The key point being private enterprise was leaving the market.
Government, in a minimalistic manner as possible, should watch markets and enforce safety standards to ensure fair competition, quality and quantity.

[202_Cyclist]

Penn Station Takes Up Two Blocks. Railroads Say They Must Have More.
After studying other ways to double capacity at the busy transit hub, the railroads that use it say they have concluded that it needs to be expanded.

By Patrick McGeehan
Oct. 2, 2024
NY Times


"After what they describe as an exhaustive study of the alternatives, Amtrak and the commuter railroads that use Pennsylvania Station in New York City say they have no choice but to take some property in Midtown Manhattan to make the station bigger.

The idea of expanding the subterranean station, the busiest transit hub in the country, to increase capacity has been kicked around for more than a decade. But community activists and some transit advocates have opposed it and demanded that Amtrak figure out how the existing Penn Station could accommodate more trains and travelers.

On Wednesday, officials of Amtrak, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, New Jersey Transit and the other railroads gave their answer: There is no other way..."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/n...n-gateway.html

[Nexis4Jersey]

It would need to expand regardless of through running due to the numerous service expansions Amtrak has, which has the core routes with a train every 10-15mins in the 2030s... The MTA has no incentive to through with the way Penn station is laid out...

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

It would need to expand regardless of through running due to the numerous service expansions Amtrak has, which has the core routes with a train every 10-15mins in the 2030s... The MTA has no incentive to through with the way Penn station is laid out...

I haven't seen any new design proposals for Penn Station operation level expansions, but the older NJT proposals only added stub tracks and platforms for NJT trains. Stub tracks will not increase through capacity of their trains, nor of LIRR trains. Amtrak through trains will still be limited by the number of existing through tracks and their platforms. What the new stub tracks and platforms will do is move NJT trains off the existing through tracks.
That was the old design. Maybe a new design, yet unpublished, will add stub tracks for LIRR as well. Maybe not?

[Randomguy34]

Please don't add stub tracks. Penn Station is making the mistakes of Chicago Union Station by having stub tracks which can't be connected due to the above office building. We were so close to having regional rail in 1914, but we ignored it and later screwed ourselves by allowing the office building to be built

1914 proposal

https://x.com/Jessie101gaming/status...7021599457632/

Now...

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_i...ap-of-chicago/

[electricron]

They posted the feasibility study of the four options they failed under the existing Penn Station, but require additional studies on extended properties to meet the 48 trains per hour goal.
https://pennstationcomplex.info/wp-c...Considered.pdf
Briefly, as I understand the problems:
They couldn't find a way to build cheaply under the existing station, and they couldn't solve the problem with through running. The two huge obstacles for through running is the requirement of 30 feet wide platforms for both loading and unloading passengers at a platform at the same time which reduced the number of tracks and platforms, and having difficulties for turning reverse trains during peak rush hours because reversing the trains requires running through four tunnels vs two tunnels reducing throughput, or turning the trains at the platforms without gaining the time advantage of through trains.

It will be interesting to see what the planners arrive at in the future, and how much more it will cost.
Typical governmental agency boondoggle. Build several tunnels to increase capacity, then have to build a larger train station to put the extra trains in.
A few Billion for new tunnels, a few Billion for a new train hall, and another few Billion for an expanded station capacity. Billions and Billions of more money needed to reach the never ending final project.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by electricron

I haven't seen any new design proposals for Penn Station operation level expansions, but the older NJT proposals only added stub tracks and platforms for NJT trains. Stub tracks will not increase through capacity of their trains, nor of LIRR trains. Amtrak through trains will still be limited by the number of existing through tracks and their platforms. What the new stub tracks and platforms will do is move NJT trains off the existing through tracks.
That was the old design. Maybe a new design, yet unpublished, will add stub tracks for LIRR as well. Maybe not?

The MTA and Amtrak spent almost a billion separating the approaches on the Queens side. So the LIRR uses the 2 northern tunnels and Northern part of the station and then continues into the West Side Yard. There's some mixing, but not enough to cause issues between the LIRR and Amtrak.