Federal Government & Politics II

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by casper

To quote the article:



Generally when you buy specialised equipment you also have the company suppling the equipment come over and install/commission their stuff. Especially true if you want the warranty to be honoured by the OEM.

You could easily have a team of engineers come over to oversee and train Canadian workers for the installation process. But no, they’ll use this as a loophole to exploit foreign workers and line the CEO’s pockets with canadians money.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If, and frankly looks more like when at this point, climate change accelerates the north has a lot of potential. 2C warmer doesn't sound like much but would make a big difference and it might be more than that locally.

Sometimes I really wonder what kind of ignorance is going around on climate change.

More northern latitudes getting longer growing seasons doesn't translate much into "livability". We're talking a place like Timmins ending up with the climate of Ottawa today and then getting choked with forest fire smoke every summer. Imagine thinking this will be attractive.

[kwoldtimer]

edit

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It is nothing short of scandalous that a country like Canada has to bring in skilled workers from S.Korea to build a battery plant in a city that has the best auto skilled workers in the country.

Since when do auto workers know how to build battery plants (some of the most complex materials manufacturing around)? In your world do pilots do surgery?

This story might be a concern, if actual production is being staffed by foreign workers. But for the construction phase? I sure hope it's South Korean engineers designing and supervising construction and not Windsor autoworkers.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I'm really starting to think Canada would be better off banning ALL foreigners from the country save healthcare and IT/engineer professionals. No students, no family reunification, no refugees, no TFW. It may be the only way Canada can get itself off its real estate Ponzi Scheme addiction and force governments and private businesses to invest in Canadian workers and technology. Our immigration system is killing our productivity and plunging our standard of living.

I'm pretty critical of our immigration policy. But how is it that you guys always land in xenophobia and banning immigrants as the solution?

Understand this, without some skilled immigration, businesses won't be paying more. They'll leave for places they can access talent. Canada is not nearly as important a market to maintain a high skilled workforce in. They know Canada will still sell resources and condos and buy everything else. They don't need to keep higher skilled work here.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sometimes I really wonder what kind of ignorance is going around on climate change.

More northern latitudes getting longer growing seasons doesn't translate much into "livability". We're talking a place like Timmins ending up with the climate of Ottawa today and then getting choked with forest fire smoke every summer. Imagine thinking this will be attractive.

This is transitory at worse. Otherwise northern Canada would have less forest fires that Tennessee. The mix will change and a lot of now forested land will become agricultural land but the idea having the climate of Pennsylvania means endless forest fires is silly. Rapid change can cause some problems but it`s very clear humans survive better, things grow better etc at warmer temperatures than Canada. Now if your argument is worldwide drought and famine and mass refugee exodus might negate the benefits if we are overwhelmed we can debate that but it is very clear Canada in a vacuum is better off with warmer temperatures even if that means we have more extreme weather and some adjustments to make during the transition. If the unproven and so far non-evident of rapid warming at some tipping point happens transition impacts could outweigh gains in short term but end result is still positive.

As far as I know we haven`t seen an objective study on cost benefit for Canada by region but a very pessimistic study was done at the county level was done for the US and every county bordering Canada sees gains:

https://www.science.org/content/arti...st-your-county

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Hecate

You could easily have a team of engineers come over to oversee and train Canadian workers for the installation process. But no, they’ll use this as a loophole to exploit foreign workers and line the CEO’s pockets with canadians money.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Since when do auto workers know how to build battery plants (some of the most complex materials manufacturing around)? In your world do pilots do surgery?

This story might be a concern, if actual production is being staffed by foreign workers. But for the construction phase? I sure hope it's South Korean engineers designing and supervising construction and not Windsor autoworkers.

From the article:

Concerns were raised in part from a social media post last week by Windsor police, who said that after meeting with South Korean ambassador Woongsoon Lim, it expected about 1,600 workers from South Korea to come to the community next year to help build the plant.

NextStar Energy chief executive Danies Lee said in a statement Monday that the company is committed to hiring Canadians to fill more than 2,500 full-time jobs at the battery plant, and engage with up to 2,300 more local tradespeople to help with construction and installation.

How can it take 1600 people for the high-skill, proprietary part? 1600 out of 3900 (1600 Koreans + 2300 local)? The shell is local. The mechanical/electrical is local. Physically placing the equipment can be local. Making the electrical tie-ins I would think could be local.

Data/interconnectivity, setup, and testing takes 1600 people?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is transitory at worse. Otherwise northern Canada would have less forest fires that Tennessee. The mix will change and a lot of now forested land will become agricultural land but the idea having the climate of Pennsylvania means endless forest fires is silly. Rapid change can cause some problems but it`s very clear humans survive better, things grow better etc at warmer temperatures than Canada. Now if your argument is worldwide drought and famine and mass refugee exodus might negate the benefits if we are overwhelmed we can debate that but it is very clear Canada in a vacuum is better off with warmer temperatures even if that means we have more extreme weather and some adjustments to make during the transition. If the unproven and so far non-evident of rapid warming at some tipping point happens transition impacts could outweigh gains in short term but end result is still positive.

As far as I know we haven`t seen an objective study on cost benefit for Canada by region but a very pessimistic study was done at the county level was done for the US and every county bordering Canada sees gains:

https://www.science.org/content/arti...st-your-county

I am not sure how viable most of Northern Ontario will be for agriculture (the clay belt being an exception). Even if the climate warms the soil is still no good for agriculture (see much of Eastern Ontario for example). But I also think the forest fire problem is at least partially temporary. As the climate warms coniferous forests will be replaced with mixed forests which are less susceptible to forest fires.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by casper

To quote the article:



Generally when you buy specialised equipment you also have the company suppling the equipment come over and install/commission their stuff. Especially true if you want the warranty to be honoured by the OEM.

Those aren’t 1,600 “Engineers” coming over.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Since when do auto workers know how to build battery plants (some of the most complex materials manufacturing around)? In your world do pilots do surgery?

This story might be a concern, if actual production is being staffed by foreign workers. But for the construction phase? I sure hope it's South Korean engineers designing and supervising construction and not Windsor autoworkers.

I agree with you, but I think we should keep a watchful eye. The amount of knowledge transfer to the locals might be lower than we expect.

Speaking as a person with an East Asian background, Chinese, Japanese and Taiwanese culture is permeated by a sense of superiority. You can see many instances where an East Asian tech company refuses to do the high value work in a foreign country - even the US - because those "Westerners have a worse work ethic than we do". Even after being showered with insane subsidies and tax breaks, companies like TSMC are still hesitant to set up shop in the US and complain about the difficulty of hiring workers who will do things exactly the way they want them to. The trade secrets stay inside the culture, the same way they did in Imperial China.

For East Asian cultures, this sense of superiority is a form of IP protectionism and even if it's racist and unfair, it has worked for them. Every advanced economy* has some form of protectionism that, on its face, is a social conceit that can be easily debunked but allows them to justify their high wages. Even Italy is able to convince the world that only the land of 'la dolce vita' can manufacture bespoke luxury fashion goods.

*We don't in Canada, and that's a problem for us.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by jonny24

From the article:



How can it take 1600 people for the high-skill, proprietary part? 1600 out of 3900 (1600 Koreans + 2300 local)? The shell is local. The mechanical/electrical is local. Physically placing the equipment can be local. Making the electrical tie-ins I would think could be local.

Data/interconnectivity, setup, and testing takes 1600 people?

1) We don't know how much of this is true. It's based on hearsay from a local LEO.

2) To build some of them most complex manufacturing plants around (in a field that Canada has no experience in) I would expect hundreds to thousand+ skilled foreign workers at peak. I sincerely doubt foreign workers are being brought in to plug in machines and put on building siding.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I agree with you, but I think we should keep a watchful eye. The amount of knowledge transfer to the locals might be lower than we expect.

100%. I'm onboard to make sure they aren't abusing our generosity. But at the end of the day we're doing this to secure long term jobs and anchor the next generation of the auto sector. So if they're bringing in a few more techs to set up the manufacturing then they need, I don't think it's worth the fuss.

But also, a whole story based on a a conversation between a diplomat and a LEO, two people not involved in the deal.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not sure how viable most of Northern Ontario will be for agriculture (the clay belt being an exception). Even if the climate warms the soil is still no good for agriculture (see much of Eastern Ontario for example). But I also think the forest fire problem is at least partially temporary. As the climate warms coniferous forests will be replaced with mixed forests which are less susceptible to forest fires.

Soil quality is also a blocker for hardwood trees. Maple-beech forests are almost immune to forest fires, but they require good soil with excellent drainage in order to grow. At the southern fringes of the Canadian Shield where the weather is warmer (Muskoka, Haliburton, etc.), you'll find maple-beech forests on hilltops where the excess water drains away but you won't find them anywhere else.

Hardwood (ie. non-coniferous) stands also take an extremely long time to establish. If a maple-beech forest is cut down for agriculture, and that agriculture is subsequently abandoned, it will take about 100 years before the maple-beech forest is once again established.

[O-tacular]

Whiny bitch Preston Manning syphoned off a nice 6 figure salary from Danielle Smith's appointed Covid panel to craft a sham report with 'recommendations' for future pandemics. To no one's surprise he doesn't want lockdowns of any kind or actual specialists involved. He wants all decision making to be 100% political (it already kind of was but he thinks politicians are better suited to make medical decisions than doctors or scientists).

Anyways.... now he wants PeePee and the CPC to weaponize this stupid waste of 2 million dollars of taxpayer money. I hope they take it up and the ties to extremists like Danielle Smith hurt them in the polls. As I've stated numerous times the CPC is now basically a federal extension of the UCP in Alberta. All the same alt right whackos are running the show.

Alberta COVID-19 panel chair urges federal Conservatives to weaponize his findings

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/alberta-c...ings-1.6653087

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

....I hope they take it up and the ties to extremists like Danielle Smith hurt them in the polls. As I've stated numerous times the CPC is now basically a federal extension of the UCP in Alberta....

It will be interesting to see which way the CPC goes with respect to energy. Smith brought in a temporary moratorium on renewable energy development back in August and remains focused on oil and gas whereas a news report today indicates that Alberta energy company TransAlta expects "more than two-thirds of its profits will come from renewable electricity production by 2028".

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

It will be interesting to see which way the CPC goes with respect to energy. Smith brought in a temporary moratorium on renewable energy development back in August and remains focused on oil and gas whereas a news report today indicates that Alberta energy company TransAlta expects "more than two-thirds of its profits will come from renewable electricity production by 2028".

Capital goes where it is welcome. If Alberta doesn't want it, they'll invest somewhere else. The flaw in UCP thinking is that they believe if they declare war on renewables that somehow companies will choose to invest in oil and gas instead. Of course, investment does not work like that.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

He wants all decision making to be 100% political (it already kind of was but he thinks politicians are better suited to make medical decisions than doctors or scientists).

Except lockdowns are not a "medical decision", they're a political one. Actions with far reaching social and economic effects should not be imposed by unelected people. Experts should definitely be on hand to advise, but in a democracy the actual decision needs to be made by the elected official. Otherwise, there is no accountability. If the people disagree with their elected leaders they can vote them out of office. If the people disagree with the experts they have no recourse. Rule by experts is tyranny.

[MolsonExport]

Experts need to be put in their proper place. Laypersons and know-nothings are generally far more likely to make decisions that are popular with voters. Vote with the heart, not the head. Don't like the message about climate change? Just ignore the experts, and your problem is solved.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Experts need to be put in their proper place. Laypersons and know-nothings are generally far more likely to make decisions that are popular with voters. Vote with the heart, not the head. Don't like the message about climate change? Just ignore the experts, and your problem is solved.

Its the job of the experts to convince the public. Because in a democracy, the will of the people is ultimately supreme. If the majority of the population opposes climate action, climate action won't happen.

Its insane that people like you constantly shit on ordinary people and call them stupid and demanding that they be banned from having opinions, and then you wonder why people like Ford, Smith, and Pollievre get elected.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Its the job of the experts to convince the public. Because in a democracy, the will of the people is ultimately supreme. If the majority of the population opposes climate action, climate action won't happen.

Its insane that people like you constantly shit on ordinary people and call them stupid and demanding that they be banned from having opinions, and then you wonder why people like Ford, Smith, and Pollievre get elected.

Epistemocracy? (Government by the wise)

Seems like that's what Molson would favour.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Epistemocracy? (Government by the wise)

It's amazing how many people try to essentially argue for technocratic authoritarianism and claim it's "democracy".

I'd have a lot more respect for people like Molson, O-Tac, and Casper if they just took the mask off and argued for the abolition of democracy in favour of dictatorship by an unelected Council of Experts because it seems like that's what they really want.