Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I was not aware of the make-up of the Haitian immigrant community. I thought Quebec had pretty much soaked up what middle class Haiti had and I guess I just assumed such folk would have French in addition to Creole. For a literate Creole speaker, however, would it be that hard to get to passable French?

The old Créole elites (a confusing term, because "Créole" in Haiti means the upper class, French-speaking elite with a lighter skin than the pure Blacks and solely Creole-speaking lower class) always looked to France and Paris in particular as a model. Lots of them migrated to France, Paris in particular. Rich ones have also migrated to the US (politicians in particular). Canada wasn't on their radar (with a few exceptions like those mentioned by Acajack).

France has comparatively received less Creole-speaking working-class Haitians. They tended to migrate more to the US, Canada, and more recently the Dominican Republic, although we did receive a few dozens of thousands of them (in particular in Guadeloupe, Martinique, and French Guiana, but also in Metropolitan France).

At the 2021 census, 98,000 first-generation Haitian immigrants lived in France (50,000 of them in Metropolitan France, 48,000 in Guadeloupe, Martinique and French Guiana). In comparison, at the 2021 census 113,000 people born in Haiti lived in Canada. And a whopping 681,000 people born in Haiti lived in the US in 2021.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The old Créole elites (a confusing term, because "Créole" in Haiti means the upper class, French-speaking elite with a lighter skin than the pure Blacks and solely Creole-speaking lower class) always looked to France and Paris in particular as a model. Lots of them migrated to France, Paris in particular. Rich ones have also migrated to the US (politicians in particular). Canada wasn't on their radar (with a few exceptions like those mentioned by Acajack).

France has comparatively received less Creole-speaking working-class Haitians. They tended to migrate more to the US, Canada, and more recently the Dominican Republic, although we did receive a few dozens of thousands of them (in particular in Guadeloupe, Martinique, and French Guiana, but also in Metropolitan France).

At the 2021 census, 98,000 first-generation Haitian immigrants lived in France (50,000 of them in Metropolitan France, 48,000 in Guadeloupe, Martinique and French Guiana). In comparison, at the 2021 census 113,000 people born in Haiti lived in Canada. And a whopping 681,000 people born in Haiti lived in the US in 2021.

And 90-95% of Haitians in Canada live in Quebec, so their visibility is far greater (100,000 people amongst 9 million) than 100,000 among 70 million in France or 700,000 amongst 330 million in the US.

That said, there are some highly visible Haitian origin people in the US, such as Joe Biden's official spokeswoman Karine Jean-Pierre.

[mousquet]

Bon, les enfants, on va se détendre un peu, hein ?
Nothing like French-speaking Belgium to laugh.
Couple of their news anchors can't help laughing at Paris's Olympic mascot.

• Video Link

Well, I can't help laughing with them. Those bastards get me every time I watch this again, for fun.
You'll admit, the mascot is prone to make one literally laugh their ass off.
It is supposed to be a Phrygian cap, a symbol of the French Revolution when it was turned into "bonnet rouge", that the most enraged extremists wore while they tortured and beheaded tens of thousands as a relief...
I may be a Republican, I know about the dark side of the Revolution, eh.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Bon, les enfants, on va se détendre un peu, hein ?
Nothing like French-speaking Belgium to laugh.
Couple of their news anchors can't help laughing at Paris's Olympic mascot.

• Video Link

Well, I can't help laughing with them. Those bastards get me every time I watch this again, for fun.
You'll admit, the mascot is prone to make one literally laugh their ass off.
It is supposed to be a Phrygian cap, a symbol of the French Revolution when it was turned into "bonnet rouge", that the most enraged extremists wore while they tortured and beheaded tens of thousands as a relief...
I may be a Republican, I know about the dark side of the Revolution, eh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqMb2eYDR7k

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At the 2021 census, 98,000 first-generation Haitian immigrants lived in France (50,000 of them in Metropolitan France, 48,000 in Guadeloupe, Martinique and French Guiana). In comparison, at the 2021 census 113,000 people born in Haiti lived in Canada. And a whopping 681,000 people born in Haiti lived in the US in 2021.

In terms of metro areas, this is where the Haitians lived in 2021:
- Miami: 230,500
- New York: 163,300
- Montréal: 90,000
- Boston: 55,000
- Orlando: 41,200
- Paris: 37,800
- Cayenne: ca. 15,000
- Philadelphia: 14,300
- Atlanta: 13,000
- Naples (FL): 10,800
- Ottawa-Gatineau: 10,300
- Fort-de-France: more than 10,000
- Pointe-à-Pitre : more than 10,000

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If the French were British, the opening ceremony would feature dancers dressed like baguettes, croissants, roquefort and brie, and striped tops/berets, along with an Eiffel Tower. Collective shudder.

Edit: Maybe also a mime doing Olympic sports.

That's what they did for the opening ceremony of the Rugby World Cup last year in Paris, and everybody (well most people at least) felt uncomfortable and ashamed at this cliché depiction of 1930s France as if it was still today's France.

https://www.20minutes.fr/sport/40522...onie-ouverture

It's the problem with France, two extremes: either reveling in a stupid stereotype from the 1930s, or denying all French identity and going for "world culture" (i.e. essentially Anglo-American culture with a strong Black tinge). That's why I said the country has lost its marbles. It's unable to adjust to the modern world since the 1970s. Our television only broadcasts US series, or completely stupid and low-budget "stereotype rural France" series that would make you cringe. We don't seem able to embrace the modern world the way the Brits do.

[Acajack]

For something taking place in Paris, I'll still take Jean Dujardin wearing a béret over Snoop Dogg.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's what they did for the opening ceremony of the Rugby World Cup last year in Paris, and everybody (well most people at least) felt uncomfortable and ashamed at this cliché depiction of 1930s France as if it was still today's France.

https://www.20minutes.fr/sport/40522...onie-ouverture

It's the problem with France, two extremes: either reveling in a stupid stereotype from the 1930s, or denying all French identity and going for "world culture" (i.e. essentially Anglo-American culture with a strong Black tinge). That's why I said the country has lost its marbles. It's unable to adjust to the modern world since the 1970s. Our television only broadcasts US series, or completely stupid and low-budget "stereotype rural France" series that would make you cringe. We don't seem able to embrace the modern world the way the Brits do.

Well, they could update the stereotypes with some very nice frocks and excentrically-designed automobiles.

Re my bold, I can just imagine the reaction. When one things of the French (unlike the British), "wacky" and "self-deprecating" don't come immediately to mind.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Couple of their news anchors can't help laughing at Paris's Olympic mascot.

The Paris Olympic mascot is a good illustration of what I'm saying. Complete lack of good taste or aesthetic. Ditto for the design of the Olympic torch, or the official Paris Olympic Games' poster. It's almost as if beauty and aesthetic was frowned upon, but it's quite on par with what the awful Paris city hall has been doing for the past 20 years: bad taste in all its urban furniture, mistreatment of Paris heritage, disregard for history and beauty.

This always makes me think of a super beautiful woman who is perhaps tired of being the "super beautiful woman", or has heard too many compliments, so she now pays no attention to how she looks, dresses awfully, doesn't comb her hair, smokes, doesn't take care of her health, etc. It's a spoiled-child behavior really. No other city in the world with the wealth of beauty that Paris has would treat its heritage, its streets, its urban furniture the way this city hall does.

So all the tackiness of these Paris Olympic games is quite on par with that. Frenchmen from before WW2, if they came back to life today, they would be frankly ashamed. France was a country that really made a point to do things aesthetically back then (complete with Beaux Arts committees for every project, etc). That's why Paris is a beautiful city in the first place (at least what remains of it).

[Acajack]

OK so the reason Snoop Dogg is going to be there is because the next Olympics will be in Los Angeles and he is from there.

Sounds less ridiculous now.

[New Brisavoine]

Anyway, bottom line is: in this tableau de désolation, at least Céline Dion is not the worst thing that could happen by far in that opening ceremony. She could add some grace, and she sings in French at least (well hopefully, because they are quite capable of asking her to sing in English, come to think of it... the French language being too "provincial" in their mind I suppose, which wouldn't surprise me considering who was asked to prepare that opening ceremony).

[kwoldtimer]

If I were in Paris and thinking about the Olympics, I'd be more concerned with security than with aesthetics.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If the French were British, the opening ceremony would feature dancers dressed like baguettes, croissants, roquefort and brie, and striped tops/berets, along with an Eiffel Tower.

They went much more "mass ritual" in 2012.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anyway, bottom line is: in this tableau de désolation, at least Céline Dion is not the worst thing that could happen by far in that opening ceremony. She could add some grace, and she sings in French at least (well hopefully, because they are quite capable of asking her to sing in English, come to think of it... the French language being too "provincial" in their mind I suppose, which wouldn't surprise me considering who was asked to prepare that opening ceremony).

That would be shocking to say the least, because Céline's personal preference would clearly be to sing in French. The JO organizers would have to put tremendous pressure on her to sing in English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

They went much more "mass ritual" in 2012.

I thought the London opening ceremony was great!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

That would be shocking to say the least, because Céline's personal preference would clearly be to sing in French. The JO organizers would have to put tremendous pressure on her to sing in English.

Answer on Friday!

The weather forecast now says it's going to rain all day on Friday though.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If I were in Paris and thinking about the Olympics, I'd be more concerned with security than with aesthetics.

If their concern was security, they would never have organized an opening ceremony on the Seine River, which all security experts say is madness. It's typical of the inflated ego of our elites. They always want to be "original", do things differently. Organizing it in a stadium as every city does wouldn't have flattered their delusion of grandeur enough.

To be very honest, like many Parisians, I hope it's an unmitigated disaster. We're many people who can't stand these games anymore, what with all the security (bridges closed, metro stations closed for months before the games, etc), plus the tackiness of it all, and the mismanagement of the city by our horrible mayor. Many people hope it turns into a disaster, in order to have the mayor sacked.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For something taking place in Paris, I'll still take Jean Dujardin wearing a béret over Snoop Dogg.

I'd picture a Luc Plamondon grand production with a mix of Notre Dame de Paris and Starmania would have been very fitting for the Paris JO.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canadians in general find it rude to address someone with an initial "excuse me?" I don't think so.

It depends on how it's delivered. If it's a loud belligerent "EXCUSE ME", it comes off as if you did something wrong, and you are required to resolve this person's problem.

A timid 'hey, excuse me, sir?' would be quite a difference.

I'll let you guess which one sounds more American.