The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by niwell

Uhhhh I am actually pretty familiar with the aerospace industry in Canada... This is even a case study we looked at during school well over a decade ago. There are areas where Canada is cutting edge (not that you'd understand)

Oh please accept my humble apologies! That such an esteemed academic would even bother acknowledging my mere existence is more than I could ever possibly hope for!

Oh Wise One, pass thine Knowledge unto me for we haveth not a DeVry Campus hereabouts!

[1overcosc]

Kingston Transit is reporting it just had its third year in a row of double-digit percent ridership growth; total boardings were up 11.4% in 2016 over 2015.

Overall, annual transit ridership has increased from 3.5 million boardings in 2011 to 5.2 million boardings in 2016; an increase of 49% over 5 years. Considering that the city's population barely increased over those 5 years that's pretty impressive.

The key is continued investment in new routes and expanded frequencies. Annual service hours have almost doubled and riders are overall quite satisfied. According to a city survey last year, when asked how the service now compares to how it was 5 years ago, 71% said the service had gotten better and only 3% said service has gotten worse.

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by VIce

Even Vancouver, whose entire rail transit system is sold on and depends on high frequencies, has a low of 20 minute frequencies at YVR.

Yea no, only late nights. During the day it's approx every 6 minutes. After 7:30 pm it's every 12 minutes. And then late night when's there's only like 10 trains running the whole line then it's 20 minutes.

[Innsertnamehere]

Toronto's system, even the Sheppard subway, never drops below 6 minute service. Much of the Yonge line runs at 3 minute frequency all day long. Bloor runs at 3 minutes except at late night when it drops to 5-6 minutes. Sheppard runs at 5 minute all day, and during the off peak periods half of all trains turn back at Eglinton West, meaning 6 minute service to Downsview.

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

No, cheapening out is Vancouver's Canada Line with 40 meter stations, single track at the end of the line, no inclines of tracks so it's as loud as hell in parts, station platforms are dangerously thin, stations have only one entry/exit, no ability to store an extra train at Waterfront in case of an emergency, no all day/night connection between the main interchange downtown, and a lack of rolling stock.

Campbell and the city only concern was to make sure that something, anything was up and running for the Olympics and making an actual effective and viable transit system over the long term was completely irrelevant.

The Canada Line is the poster child of how not to plan for the future.

Little bit off on the one entrance. Templeton station has two entrances. Although the south entrance is only a grass field with a parking lot. YVR has the domestic side entrance plus the U.S./International entrance. Vancouver City has the Georgia Street main entrance plus the Pacific Centre mall entrance and right across from that is the Vancouver Centre mall entrance. Waterfront station has the north and south entrance. The north entrance is where you go to seamlessly connect to the Expo and Millenium Line, Westcoast Express and Seabus. Plus Helijet and Canada Place/cruise ships.

[Horus]

This is probably a good idea

Metrolinx ponders distance-based transit fares for all passengers in the Toronto region
Fare integration proposal would see passengers on TTC and other GTHA transit systems charged a per kilometre rate.

By Ben Spurr, Transportation Reporter
Tues., Feb. 14, 2017

How much should it cost to ride the TTC? According to a new policy under consideration by the province’s regional transit agency, it should depend on how far you travel.

Metrolinx, the provincial organization that oversees transit for the GTHA, is considering a fare model for the area’s transit operators that would see all passengers on buses, streetcars, subways, and GO Transit pay by distance.

A report on the issue will be discussed at Friday’s Metrolinx board meeting, as part of its ongoing fare integration project that aims to standardize the pricing policies of GO and the region’s nine municipal transit agencies.

The fare-by-distance model was made public Tuesday, and joins three other proposals that were already under consideration.

“It would be system-wide and be a very major dramatic change,” said Leslie Woo, chief planning officer for Metrolinx, “but it would enable greater consistency in fares (across the region) and it would better reflect the cost of the length of the trip.”

Woo said more work needs to be done to determine which model is best.

The three original options are: a modified version of the status quo that would provide discounts for riders crossing between the TTC and GO; a zone-based system that would charge riders more for crossing defined boundaries; and a hybrid that would have a flat rate for local bus travel but charge by distance or zone for subways and regional rail.

While two of the previous options included some form of distance-based charge, the new proposal would charge all riders a per kilometre rate. Similar systems are used in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, and the Netherlands.

The dollar value of the per kilometre charge hasn’t been determined, but Woo said it could vary depending on the transit agency, and whether passengers were travelling by bus, subway, or regional rail.

Like the other options, the fare-by-distance proposal is dependent on the full implementation of the Presto fare card system across the TTC and the other transit agencies in the region.

The TTC currently charges a flat rate for trips of any distance, which agency leaders have frequently described as a major selling point for Toronto’s transit system.

In an email, TTC spokesperson Brad Ross acknowledged that there would be some advantages to switching to fare-by-distance, but that the existing structure is very user friendly.

“One of the benefits to customers is that they know how much a ride is going to cost them before they travel,” he said. “Another is that no matter how far you travel you pay the same fare.”

Asked Tuesday about Metrolinx’s latest proposal, Mayor John Tory said it was too early to endorse any fare model. But he said that the current GO price structure is “unfair” for people travelling within Toronto and “should be fixed.”

GO currently charges a high base fare plus a distance component. According to a 2016 city report, that discourages trips on the GO network within Toronto by making short journeys too expensive. Passengers coming from outside the city to Union Station pay much less per kilometre than passengers who board within the city limits.

A per kilometre charge would likely render short trips within Toronto cheaper by comparison. That would be critical for attracting riders to Tory’s SmartTrack rail plan, which is being implemented on GO lines within Toronto.

Metrolinx is expected to finish preparing its business case for fare integration in the third quarter of 2017. There is no timetable for when a new fare model will be put in place.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/02...ansit-fares-right-across-the-region.html

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Horus

This is probably a good idea



https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/02...ansit-fares-right-across-the-region.html

I think distance based fares make sense. They use them on the Shanghai Metro (fares are between 3 and 9RMB ($0.60-$1.80) depending on distance travelled) and I think they're the fairest way of charging for rail travel.

[ssiguy]

Distance based fares are "fair"..........the more you travel the more you pay. It shouldn't make any difference how you get to your destination {bus/streetcar/RT/subway/RER} but rather how far you travel. This is why toll bridges in Vancouver are universally hated but less so toll roads. Flat tolls at one particular place like a bridge hits someone going 1 km the same as they would get hit if travelling 50 km on a tolled roadway.

[MalcolmTucker]

The only time they are not fair is when almost everyone needs to get through a choke point, and the choke point is congested, and short cheap trips are displacing long trips and leaving the line underused elsewhere. In that case, the choke point should have a cost in addition to distance.

[WhipperSnapper]

I only see per kilometre fares as a way to jack up prices otherwise there's little value in offering discounted short one to two stop trips or forcing people on tighter budgets to pay more for the longer distances they tend to travel. It's not a taxi either. The bus runs whether there are customers or not. Fare zones make more sense to me to recoup more of the costs of service if absolutely needed. The loyalty programs are completely ass backward in Toronto. The metropass is only of value if you use it 11 or 12 times a week. That's ridiculous! It's money in hand upfront!

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Horus

This is probably a good idea



https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/02...ansit-fares-right-across-the-region.html

I'm not against distance-based fares in principle. However the cost has to be kept under control, otherwise it will cause more people in the suburbs to drive to work downtown.

I know myself, from where I live in the northeast part of North York, even at rush hour it takes me half the time to drive to work than it does to take the TTC. At this point it costs me less to take the TTC than it does to have a monthly parking pass at my office building, but the difference is not very large. If the current cost of taking the TTC increased from the current $3 each way to, say, $6 from where I live, I would likely start driving to work. Does the City of Toronto and the province really want me to add to congestion on the DVP?

Of course, moving closer to downtown would help in that scenario, but given that I already own a car and already pay for insurance on it, and I am single and don't have a spouse/partner to split rent with in a more expensive part of the city, moving would not be my first choice to deal with this cost change.

I think a zone-based fare system, currently used in Metro Vancouver, is a better way to go. Trips within the City of Toronto should have a single fare, whether using TTC, GO, or any other agency that operates within the city.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Kingston Transit is reporting it just had its third year in a row of double-digit percent ridership growth; total boardings were up 11.4% in 2016 over 2015.

Overall, annual transit ridership has increased from 3.5 million boardings in 2011 to 5.2 million boardings in 2016; an increase of 49% over 5 years. Considering that the city's population barely increased over those 5 years that's pretty impressive.

The key is continued investment in new routes and expanded frequencies. Annual service hours have almost doubled and riders are overall quite satisfied. According to a city survey last year, when asked how the service now compares to how it was 5 years ago, 71% said the service had gotten better and only 3% said service has gotten worse.

Not surprising at all. When I first moved to Kingston five years ago, Kingston Transit was terrible; some of the routes made absolutely no sense, and it was notoriously unreliable. I had heard several horror stories from people who had lived there for some time; one of the most notable was how what was then the only route to the VIA station didn't operate after the last scheduled train arrival, but if the train was even 2 minutes late there would be no bus out of the station. Buses sometimes also didn't show up at various locations. I ended up buying my car because of how unreliable and inefficient it was.

The introduction of the first express routes in the fall of 2013 was a turning point, and more express routes have been introduced since. By the time I left the city over a year ago, it had been turned around 360 degrees. I would be far less likely to want to own a car if I lived in midtown Kingston today than when I first moved there.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Not surprising at all. When I first moved to Kingston five years ago, Kingston Transit was terrible; some of the routes made absolutely no sense, and it was notoriously unreliable. I had heard several horror stories from people who had lived there for some time; one of the most notable was how what was then the only route to the VIA station didn't operate after the last scheduled train arrival, but if the train was even 2 minutes late there would be no bus out of the station. Buses sometimes also didn't show up at various locations. I ended up buying my car because of how unreliable and inefficient it was.

Yeah.. transit used to be absolutely horrible in Kingston. This is one of the key reasons why the student population is insanely concentrated into a single "ghetto"--the lack of good transit for many years meant they had to find housing within walking distance of the university.

[JHikka]

What would be some different ways of implementing distance-based payments for things like Metrolinx? I know the easiest would be, for example, Presto cards at stations boarding and exiting, but as far as other payments options go. If someone buys a ticket that says they're going X distance what mechanisms are in place to ensure they exit at that location?

Probably a silly question but i'm genuinely curious how this is implemented and viably controlled to prevent people from abusing low-cost options.

[ssiguy]

If they are going to introduce {which I hope they do} a distance based system then it won't be truly feasible until PRESTO is completely rolled out. If that happens and they go distance based then I could see the eventual phasing out of all cash, tickets, tokens, and passes.

The thing that has always puzzled me is what if someone taps in and is going a km or 2 but forgets to tap out or the tap out didn't work properly. How much of a a fare would be charged?

[swimmer_spe]

I wonder if it will be truly distance based, or will there just be fare zones. Fare zones would make the most sense, and make things easier to figure out. A complete distance based system will get expensive fast.

GO is a fare zone system, and would be the easiest to roll out.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

If they are going to introduce {which I hope they do} a distance based system then it won't be truly feasible until PRESTO is completely rolled out. If that happens and they go distance based then I could see the eventual phasing out of all cash, tickets, tokens, and passes.

The thing that has always puzzled me is what if someone taps in and is going a km or 2 but forgets to tap out or the tap out didn't work properly. How much of a a fare would be charged?

I may be mistaken, but I believe GO charges the fare to the end of the line if you don't tap out.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I may be mistaken, but I believe GO charges the fare to the end of the line if you don't tap out.

That is correct.

[Doady]

TTC passes are ridiculously expensive compared to other agencies both within and outside of the GTA.

No time-based transfers either. You can't make a short trip and return on one fare on TTC, but you can on MiWay, YRT, Brampton Transit, etc.

I also think GO Transit is way overpriced. GO Transit is supposed to have distance-based fares already, but in practice if you travel a few km on GO, it more expensive than local transit.

Using GO Transit (aka Metrolinx), going from Port Credit station to Long Branch Station is $4.93. Do you want the 23 Lakeshore bus to be $4.93 as well? Be wary of Metrolinx/GO's push for distance-based fares.

I think the real problems are: lack of time-based transfers for TTC, free parking at GO stations (i.e. local transit riders and pedestrians pay for parking), lack of GO/TTC fare integration, and lack of fare integration of TTC/905 systems.

I think a lot of the social problems you see in Malton, Rexdale, Jane-Finch, Malvern are the result of lack of fare intergration. It creates a barrier for people and isolates them and limits their opportunities. That should be Metrolinx #1 priority.

Maybe distance-based fares are the solution, but somehow I doubt Metrolinx/GO cares about these problems. Their MO is all about efficiency, high cost recovery. Metrolinx/GO has 80% cost recovery ratio, probably the highest in North America. That should tell you all you need about this distance-based fare proposal.

[caltrane74]

80% recovery, that is incredible. Not too much more to go, and it's a business.