Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

Those buildings have stuff in them though. They are not empty boxes. They add businesses, employment opportunities, and places to live as well as vibrancy, and they can be interesting architecturally.

I don't agree with the idea of comparing cities by pretending that anything above floor 6 doesn't exist.

Most North American cities have grown a lot in recent decades so they are faced with the decision of how to redevelop themselves to increase density and reduce the cost of travel. Highrises are a nice way to do this because they add a lot of density while disrupting a smaller percentage of the land and making heritage preservation possible. Instead of tearing down the whole downtown and rebuilding at 8 floors instead of 3 you tear down 10% of the buildings and put up highrises.

Are you saying that because it has taller buildings, that central Halifax is denser and/or more vibrant than a typical European city of a similar size? If so, I'd be quite surprised if this were true. And if it isn't and the European cities find ways to incorporate their density using shorter buildings, than yea, the height is mostly irrelevant. I mean, yes highrises can be interesting architecturally... but can't any size building be interesting architecturally? Are we really going to argue that Halifax has superior architecture than a similar sized European city due to replacing more of its urban fabric with contemporary highrises?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Are you saying that because it has taller buildings, that central Halifax is denser and/or more vibrant than a typical European city of a similar size? If so, I'd be quite surprised if this were true.

I don't think this is necessarily out of the question. I guess in part it depends what you mean by density (purely residential density? or number of people in a given area at a given time?). It also depends what you mean by vibrancy (is this the number of people milling about? the number of things to do? the variety of foods to try? the loudness of it all?). Given what I know about cities, I think it would be fairly safe to assume that downtown Halifax is about as dense or denser (all things considered) than the city centres of most European cities of a similar size and that the rest of the city/urban area is less dense than it's European counterparts, likely with a few exceptions on both counts. Maybe the streets in Europe would be narrower on average which would up the density. Maybe the handful of surface parking lots in DT Halifax push the density way below that of its Euro counterparts. These two considerations aside though, I don't think I would assume that smallish European city centres are generally denser and more vibrant than downtown Halifax without seeing a LOT of data (and admittedly I don't really care enough to spend my night searching for that data).

And if it isn't and the European cities find ways to incorporate their density using shorter buildings, than yea, the height is mostly irrelevant.

Height isn't really irrelevant though. If a city centre is packed with highrises and very little open space / very few 1-storey buildings or surface parking then it is generally more dense than one that is made up of uniform 4-storey buildings. The argument that "5 4-storey buildings = the same density (or more?) than 1 20-storey building" assumes that the 20-storey building is surrounded by empty land. Obviously Paris is denser than Vegas even though the latter has more prominent highrises. Is central Amsterdam denser than central Vancouver though?

Are we really going to argue that Halifax has superior architecture than a similar sized European city due to replacing more of its urban fabric with contemporary highrises?

I don't think anyone argued that. I also don't think Halifax's (or insert North American City Here) architecture is inherently inferior to (insert European City Here)'s, it's a matter of personal taste. It's a bit different than what you're going to find in Europe, some people will like it more, some less.

[Hali87]

I guess what it comes down to is nowhere in Europe are you really going to find a city of ~1M that looks like Calgary, and nowhere in Canada are you really going to find a city of ~1M that looks like Stockholm. They are opposite extremes of the continuum in many ways.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

One advantage is that the highrises tend to be a lot cheaper (lower land cost per floor of usable space), and the big buildings have more amenities (costs shared among more tenants). One of the apartment buildings that was completed last year right in the middle of downtown Halifax has a swimming pool and gym in it as well as some restaurants and commercial space, big rooftop patio, lobby space, big balconies, etc. The units start at 600 square feet and rent for around $1500 a month.

It's not possible to build something like that to 6 storeys in a valuable urban area with the same level of affordability. And I'm guessing it would be hard to find that kind of living arrangement in most European cities. The large commercial complexes have similar advantages. Perhaps this isn't an urban aesthetic advantage (I actually do like the taller buildings and a mix of large and small buildings), but it sure is a livability advantage. The people in the highrise also get nicer views and more sun than they would in a lowrise.

In the long run I also think the larger scale North American development is going to produce a bunch of neighbourhoods that are much more vibrant than the traditional European scale allows for.

I'd definitely place that stuff into the practical life and material advantages that I already mentioned NA cities tend to have.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Height isn't really irrelevant though. If a city centre is packed with highrises and very little open space / very few 1-storey buildings or surface parking then it is generally more dense than one that is made up of uniform 4-storey buildings. The argument that "5 4-storey buildings = the same density (or more?) than 1 20-storey building" assumes that the 20-storey building is surrounded by empty land.:

Perhaps not irrelevant overall, just in terms of making an attractive pedestrian friendly urban fabric. I mean, highrises do allow greater built density on a given site while they also present challenges with shadowing and wind. All important issues.

I'll point out though that Halifax isn't really that packed with buildings all things considered. The barren expanse of the Cogswell interchange is right between the first and fifth tallest downtown towers. There's also an empty lot right beside the Delta Barrington, surface parking at Hollis and Sackville, Lower Water and Sackville, and Barrington and George, etc. but it's possible some of them still could be less dense.

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't think anyone argued that. I also don't think Halifax's (or insert North American City Here) architecture is inherently inferior to (insert European City Here)'s, it's a matter of personal taste. It's a bit different than what you're going to find in Europe, some people will like it more, some less.

I realize he said interesting rather than superior, but unless it being interesting ultimately makes it better, then it isn't really worth mentioning is it? I mean, if our architecture is more interesting but less attractive for a net result of zero, then it doesn't seem like much of an achievement?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Perhaps not irrelevant overall, just in terms of making an attractive pedestrian friendly urban fabric. I mean, highrises do allow greater built density on a given site while they also present challenges with shadowing and wind. All important issues.

I'll point out though that Halifax isn't really that packed with buildings all things considered. The barren expanse of the Cogswell interchange is right between the first and fifth tallest downtown towers. There's also an empty lot right beside the Delta Barrington, surface parking at Hollis and Sackville, Lower Water and Sackville, and Barrington and George, etc. but it's possible some of them still could be less dense.

Yes there are some vacant lots in downtown Halifax but my point is that it's not mostly empty land with a few highrises thrown in. I'm not convinced that we could fit everything that exists in Downtown Halifax within a uniform district of 4-storey buildings covering the same area, but I could be wrong.

I realize he said interesting rather than superior, but unless it being interesting ultimately makes it better, then it isn't really worth mentioning is it? I mean, if our architecture is more interesting but less attractive for a net result of zero, then it doesn't seem like much of an achievement?

I don't think that it is a case of "more interesting / less attractive" canceling each other out at all. I'm not really sure how else to put this except that I think we fundamentally just disagree on this.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Yes there are some vacant lots in downtown Halifax but my point is that it's not mostly empty land with a few highrises thrown in. I'm not convinced that we could fit everything that exists in Downtown Halifax within a uniform district of 4-storey buildings covering the same area, but I could be wrong.

It's not possible. A lot of downtown Halifax has a floor to area ratio of 12 of more, which means that if the footprint were spread out to cover 100% of the land it would hit 12 floors. Some blocks with large apartments have densities of 20,000 per square kilometer or more.

The historic podium plus tower pattern that has become popular in Halifax has the possibility to create the best of both worlds. We'll see how it turns out but one of the new buildings on Barrington will be a highrise with a 3 storey sandstone Art Deco podium. It could end up with all of the street level interest and about 5x the density.

[jlousa]

Originally Posted by giallo

After spending a week in Paris, I'd give up every single highrise/skyscraper in Vancouver to have architecture and an urban fabric as impressive as that city. Paris is freaking incredible.

I would agree with that, hence the push lately in Vancouver to give up on chasing taller and instead shift focus even more on the street realm. We will never be a Paris but we can be better then we have been. We are already one of the best in north america when it comes to public realm but there is so much more to do. Glad to see numerous other cities doing the same.

[dleung]

^^If anything I've observed the opposite in Vancouver over the last 5 years. Towers are taller, 400' is the new 300', but the city hasn't gotten better public realm out of the extra density.

With the exception of Aquilini Centre South (where I don't know how the developer let the architect get away with keeping the sell-able square footage well above the ground plane leaving only a triple-height lobby and generous covered plaza), most of the other new towers are piled up quite meanly against the street, where the podiums look more like afterthoughts, and clear heights for the retail floor are basically the same as a residential floor...

Tacky 20-year old condo podium has higher retail floors than u/c 42-storey tower across the street:

[Monolith]

Downtown Vancouver and City of North Vancouver from Mt Seymour Third Peak by Ian Fisher, on Flickr


By c.turzak... on Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/turzakchristopher/45375005761/

[isaidso]

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[Wpg_Guy]

Carmen Marer (@carmenmarer) on Instagram: “Well hello again! #prairies

[logan5]

The best newly built public realm I can think of is this stretch of Main St. Not that it's stupendous or anything, but there's variation that all other developments lack. Usually just a blank wall.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2793411,...fJhH5WZvQxaIxbLPYyLWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Wpg_Guy]

@carlamdyck
#flashphotofest #exploretheexchange #Winnipeg @FlashPhotoFest

[Chadillaccc]

IG @ mikemaciaszek - https://www.instagram.com/mikemaciaszek/

[TorontoDrew]

[IMG]1W2A0087 by Clement Lo, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]Downtown by White Swan Arts (+400k views), on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]1W2A0041 by Clement Lo, on Flickr[/IMG]

[mistercorporate]

by mplstodd on flickr

[q12]

https://twitter.com/emilymillerHFX/status/1053308264073625600

[Monolith]

By PhotoDG on Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/photodg/45...7-2aNGfrt-29rfZbh-29rJAQQ-Nubx9e-2cePwg8

[Klazu]

One of the best views any Broadway corridor apartment has.