Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[thoughtsandrobots]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Welcome to the forum!

A word of advice, seeing what went down today in the Canada forum. Try not to generalize and group people into racial or cultural groups. People here don't like that.

That's not advice. That's an attempt to silence non-traditional view points isn't it? That's so Canadian.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

That's not advice. That's an attempt to silence non-traditional view points isn't it? That's so Canadian.

WOW! I was trying to suggest that maybe you shouldn't call things gay, and treat people from Saskatchewan as inbred cow tippers, or say that hockey is for white people...Great first impression!

Whatever, that's enough of this shitstorm for one day.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

That's not advice. That's an attempt to silence non-traditional view points isn't it? That's so Canadian.

It's not that your post was particularly offensive, it wasn't, but members of this forum still have PTSD from some racial rants by a couple guys on here that ruffled more than a few feathers (Stryker, Tosin, etc.). They're particularly sensitive to it now, anything with the words "white", "black", "interracial" seems to trigger people lol. Your points are otherwise quite valid, just a friendly heads up.

[thoughtsandrobots]

I didn't say those things. People call soccer that. There are lots of white people at Leafs stuff. I'm white too with a bottled tan. Never called anyone a cow tipper.

But I agree, I will leave too. Got a Toronto FC game tonight and a Maple Leafs playoff game and a Blue Jays game. Tomorrow its a Toronto Wolfpack game, Raptors game and Jays game. Sunday will be a Maple Leafs and Blue Jays game. I will let the nice modern gentlemen from Saskatchewan twiddle their thumbs and wait for the CFL season to start...

[EpicPonyTime]

We're all idiots.

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

We're going to see how the CFL/Stampeders rank in importance on Monday:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/arena-vision-plan-b-report-city-council-1.4079031

If initial reports are true and the Stamps only get some "minor" improvements to McMahon stadium - it won't be great news for the long term health of that franchise, IMO.

Wonder if they're talking new outhouses minor, or a more substantial improvement. Has there been any rumours of them talking to the UofC about it?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

I didn't say those things.

But I agree, I will leave too. Got a Toronto FC game tonight and a Maple Leafs playoff game and a Blue Jays game. Tomorrow its a Toronto Wolfpack game, Raptors game and Jays game. Sunday will be a Maple Leafs and Blue Jays game. I will let the nice modern gentlemen from Saskatchewan twiddle their thumbs and wait for the CFL season to start...

I believe they're in the middle of cow-tipping season, Saskatoon's in the playoffs next week (Canada's team!), "Come on you mooOOooo's!!!"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

This is the future of Canada.

On one side, you have a set of people for whom the selection is less diverse. What exists has always seemingly been there. It's a tradition they can't see past. Of course, I'm talking about the hockey and CFL thing on the Prairies. They defend it. Soccer is gay. Basketball too.

On the other side, you have a set of people for whom diversity is everything. Things are changing and ambition is plentiful. There is soccer and basketball and baseball and football and hockey and now rugby. They want more. They are open to possibilities.

And this is why you will never see that many white people together in one place in Toronto as you will in Maple Leaf Square during a Leafs game. Same thing in the city itself. Hockey people vs. everything else.

Well, in my case my three favourite team sports are fairly equally hockey, soccer and gridiron football (Canadian or American - I like both). I have only a passing interest in baseball and very little interest in basketball at all.

It's funny that you are insinuating that bringing stuff like the NFL to Toronto is somehow related to opening up to the world, as American football is unquestionably the *least* international of all of major pro sports played on this continent.

I don't really care personally as I tend to like what I like regardless of what other people say, but obviously you're not aware that American football is mocked and derided by a crushing majority of sports fans around the world. Have you ever heard the term "handegg"?

If we consider MLS a major league, then that's the most international sport in terms of global popularity and the origin of players.

Then it's basketball which is actually the most popular North American origin sport in the world. By a longshot.

After that, believe it or not baseball and hockey are likely tied for global reach. For example, the number of countries of origin for NHL and NBA players is fairly similar. Whodathunk that?

And then there is the NFL which is of course the kingpin in its home market but with very little impact worldwide. (Though yeah, they're trying to change that.)

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

We're all idiots.



Wonder if they're talking new outhouses minor, or a more substantial improvement. Has there been any rumours of them talking to the UofC about it?

Honestly, there's been little to zero talk about what will happen with the Stamps situation. All we know is what was announced when they first said they were going to explore this Plan B. "Some renovations" could mean almost anything but doesn't sound very promising or exciting.

[LeTravailleur]

OK, not related to the previous discussion, but...

First picture of Laval's Place Bell lighting up at night!
I like that they can project images around the main block. Really adds to a very clean (too clean?) building.


From Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/PlaceBellLaval/

[WhipperSnapper]

Toronto is clearly a proven MLB city but, do you guys really believe MLSE or Rogers would be awarded an expansion franchise in 2017? There are only two teams in the entire league of 30 with corporate ownership. I don't believe there's even one in the NFL. It is the only true thing keeping the NFL from expanding here. Whatever happen with the Bills moving to Toronto doesn't matter. It never would have been approved by the league with MLSE behind it.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Honestly, there's been little to zero talk about what will happen with the Stamps situation. All we know is what was announced when they first said they were going to explore this Plan B. "Some renovations" could mean almost anything but doesn't sound very promising or exciting.

I see. In that case I'd really like to be optimistic, but given these are the owners who just threatened to move the Flames if they didn't get their way... Let's just say I'm not optimistic they'll be opening up their wallets for a team which only generates moderate profits.

Originally Posted by LeTravailleur

OK, not related to the previous discussion, but...

First picture of Laval's Place Bell lighting up at night!
I like that they can project images around the main block. Really adds to a very clean (too clean?) building.


From Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/PlaceBellLaval/

That's really impressive for a minor league arena, but I can't shake the feeling that I could buy one in my local Bell store.

[tomthumb2]

^^ Can we please get back to name calling and rhetoric? I was really enjoying that. I believe it's the stubble jumpers from Saskatchewan's turn to lob some bombs back at Mister Corporate and that robot guy.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

Yeah but it's the CFL.

The second most watched sport in Canada, behind hockey of course. I would be interested to see the entire list. MLS is definitely getting more and more viewership but I'd venture to guess it's still behind Women's curling.

Every league/team has up and down years, mainly due to if a winning team is on display or not.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I believe they're in the middle of cow-tipping season, Saskatoon's in the playoffs next week (Canada's team!), "Come on you mooOOooo's!!!"

Regina Pats you moron!

[osmo]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Toronto is clearly a proven MLB city but, do you guys really believe MLSE or Rogers would be awarded an expansion franchise in 2017? There are only two teams in the entire league of 30 with corporate ownership. I don't believe there's even one in the NFL. It is the only true thing keeping the NFL from expanding here. Whatever happen with the Bills moving to Toronto doesn't matter. It never would have been approved by the league with MLSE behind it.

NFL does not do corporate ownership. When Rogers was musing the Bils it was old Ted Rogers and his own personal money on the table.

How many Canadians have the cash and are spires crazy enough to tempt to get into the NFL? The fact they would have to foot a large chunk of the stadium bill as well lends me to believe it is a pipe dream at the moment.

My take is the only way the NFL comes here is if Toronto gets an Olympics or World Cup that would force public money into a large stadia project. Minus thatvt will all just be speculation.

If Toronto ever got the Olympics or a WC final then the NFL would be pushing to get in here as a owner would likely step up to throw money around.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

NFL does not do corporate ownership. When Rogers was musing the Bils it was old Ted Rogers and his own personal money on the table.

How many Canadians have the cash and are spires crazy enough to tempt to get into the NFL? The fact they would have to foot a large chunk of the stadium bill as well lends me to believe it is a pipe dream at the moment.

My take is the only way the NFL comes here is if Toronto gets an Olympics or World Cup that would force public money into a large stadia project. Minus thatvt will all just be speculation.

If Toronto ever got the Olympics or a WC final then the NFL would be pushing to get in here as a owner would likely step up to throw money around.

Getting down to brass tacks, it is really the stadium that is bigger obstacle than the franchise itself. I'm sure there are a few billionaires with big egos who'd be willing to pony up for a franchise. Where it breaks down is the 1 to 2 billion you'd need for the stadium.

I have no doubt that the inflated NFL franchise values are based at least in part on the fact that many local governments will basically gift you a massive new stadium. Maybe not in the absolute tier one markets like NY/LA, but just about every other place has a municipal/county/state government that will front you at least part of the cash. It's seriously hard to imagine that playing out in Ontario, particularly when the Skydome giveaway to Rogers, coincidentally enough, is still fresh in people's minds. At this point a successful Summer Olympic bid is probably Toronto's only hope.

If Toronto's rich dudes really wanted to be in the NFL, they probably should have tried harder when Skydome was still brand new and shiny, and franchises were much less expensive. The whole idea seems farther off now than it was 25 years ago.

[FFX-ME]

The skydome would have still been considered too small for the NFL so a new stadium would be needed either way.

[osmo]

If I recall Paul Godfrey and his hustlers poked and sniffed arid the NFL idea in the 90s but got push back from the province in a protections measure on the CFL. If I remember that story correctly that is.

[blueandgoldguy]

Wow! I come to the stadium thread to read about stadiums and read several pages of confabulation, conjecture and hyperbole.

Considering the rapid inflation in the valuations of NFL franchises ($1.4 billion minimum), and the likelihood a domed stadium would have to be 100% privately financed in Toronto (probably in the range of $1.2 to $1.5 billion), it is probable the ROI for an NFL team is simply not financially feasible for any potential ownership group.

A few years ago, the consortium from Toronto (with a notable presence of Bon Jovi) had their opportunity to outbid Pegula for the Buffalo Bills and they came up far short ($1.1 billion bid vs. $1.4 billion bid). So why will it be easier in the future with valuations expected to rise?

Following renos to the stadium, Pegula signed a lease with the city of Buffalo that runs through 2022 at which time the city, state and or county will have probably agreed to what will no doubt be a largely publicly funded stadium.

If the Toronto ownership group felt confident in their ability to generate a reasonable ROI on the team, they would have paid more than Pegula, stuck out the intervening years in Buffalo until the lease expired and relocated the franchise to Toronto in a 100% privately funded domed stadium. Being outbid by $300 million suggests prospective owners in Toronto are not too confident about potential future revenue generation. If they were, surely the bid would have been more impressive that what it was. As it stands now, it will be increasingly difficult and expensive to purchase a franchise in the near and long term.

A refurb of an Olympic Stadium (if Toronto does win the bid for 2028) to host an NFL team is not as simple as digging a hole and adding more seats at field level. As can be seen by the move of West Ham to London Olympic Stadium, the transition can be far from ideal - rising costs and a renoed stadium that is simply less than inadequate for its new tenants.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by thoughtsandrobots

Yeah but it's the CFL.

This sums up what is right about the west and so wrong about Toronto.

Almost everywhere else in the country, embraces the CFL, where as Toronto once again proves it's inferiority complex but having to put down the CFL.

"Mommy! I want to be cool like the NFL cities in the USA.

Now Toronto, eat your veggies, grow up and maybe some day you will be big enough and strong enough to play with the big kids....."