Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Calgary shits alllll over Helsinki!

I guess if you say it often enough some people will believe it.

[someone123]

My favourite/funniest Berlin stories would be hard to recount on SSP without violating a bunch of forum rules. I'm not sure it's more boring than Toronto.

To be fair, I don't think mistercorporate said if this was about skylines or general urban appeal. And this is a skyline thread. More generally discussions tend to be all over the place so the only coherent way to approach them is to respond to specific claims by specific people.

[mistercorporate]

by Stephen Downes on flickr

[mistercorporate]

This is the busiest public square in Bore-lin (Alexander Platz)...*barf*:


by Fraser Berlin

[Ontario1]

I was just in Berlin a couple weeks ago. I never saw so many cranes all over in my life. There have to be 200+ cranes scattered around the city. They mostly build density in 6 or 7 storey buildings though. Guys were riding up on the concrete buckets when they were pouring concrete. You don't see that here in Toronto.

[kool maudit]

This is getting to be just the "European snob" character inverted.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yes, this is a skyline thread on skyscraperpage.com. If we are having a debate about skylines featuring skyscrapers, North American cities would win in almost all circumstances. Houston has a better skyscraper skyline than Barcelona. Now, I prefer the urban experience of Barcelona more than Houston, but I don't think that that argument counts on this particular thread. Somebody could counter and say that Houston has better Mexican food than Barcelona, and that would be an equally valid card to play.

But even if we must talk about street level experiences, I think that a lot of what looks good on paper in Europe is actually pretty bad. Walking around a lot of European cities, I'm struck by how a lot of the dense urban neighbourhoods feature unpleasant hardscaped monotony. Things like unbroken masonry walls where the windows begin above your head height, or a lack of greenery or separation from cars in dense areas such that you have to squeeze against a wall while a delivery truck drives 2 feet away from you. Or the endless rows of tall gated walls that separate private residences from the streets, whereas in North America these homes would be unseparated from the sidewalk behind a small lawn or porch.

I've made these types of points before and I agree, but I do think that in terms of urban attractiveness Europe still takes it most of the time.

In many ways though, as I've also said on here in the past, our cities don't give up much anymore to Europe in terms of being good places to live on most metrics. ''Practical'' life is generally easier on this side of the pond, and usually cheaper too. This is not to say that life in Europe is horribly impractical, but if I need to pick between the two for user-friendliness, I clearly pick NA.

I am not indifferent to "charm". In fact, it tugs at my heart strings. But charm doesn't do much to get me cough syrup for my kids at 11:30 pm.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

This is getting to be just the "European snob" character inverted.

Is it really that hard for people to admit that both sides of the Atlantic have their pros and cons, and that neither is really "horrid" in the areas where the other truly excels more?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

There are some 20 storey buildings in this shot and there are 2 mixed use complexes that are probably over 1 million square feet or so each. And lot of this was built over the past couple years.

In typical smaller European cities (sub-500,000) you will find city centres with many streets of 3-6 storey apartments and office buildings, with a pleasant mix of shops and some nice public spaces. But not much of a larger scale than that.

Nouvellecosse makes a good point though: this type of street-level vibrancy exists in most smaller European cities (think Halifax or Regina sized cities). In fact, it's pretty much the norm.

Cities of a few hundred thousand over there basically all have vibrant downtowns with department stores, decent shopping, some measure of nightlife and most of the stuff you'd expect in the central part of a city.

It's those that don't that are (rare) exceptions.

As for the height of the buildings above you, I don't know that that makes much of a difference (4-6 storeys vs. 20) to the experience you get walking around. If anything in terms of wind and shade, more height may actually make it less nice of an urban space.

[kool maudit]

There are some smaller cities like the Halifax-sized Aarhus that feature intriguing modern developments alongside their old cores, but the New World is better at intermingling the two styles versus just having them be beside each other.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for the height of the buildings above you, I don't know that that makes much of a difference (4-6 storeys vs. 20) to the experience you get walking around. If anything in terms of wind and shade, more height may actually make it less nice of an urban space.

Certainly the dimensions and proportions of buildings in Halifax are likely more similar to other small cities in NA while those of European small cities are more similar to one another. But whether that observation as an advantage, disadvantage or neither in terms of urban fabric/streetscape quality is another question.

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the number one difference that causes a lot of urbanists to like European cities more is that they tended to maintain more of a mixed-use core, while North American cities generally went all-in on reconfiguring their cores into the central business districts that were popular with planners around 1940-1990. The European cores have more foot traffic over a wider time distribution and more interesting stuff to see, but less office space. In many cases the postwar reconfiguration was a sign of economic vibrancy at the time, even if it turned out to be a bit ill conceived.

For me another aspect is that the dense / interesting / busy areas seem to cover more of the metro areas in Europe compared to in NA. There's this thing with NA where as the metro area grows, it's hard for the proportion covered by mid or high density to also grow significantly. You'll often see downtowns grow significantly taller and/or denser, and a few key nodes and urban nabes (generally already quite urban) grow denser, but you less often see low density or non urban areas (except maybe a few grey/brownfields near city centres) grow much denser.

I think it's because there's a mindset that states that the only type of development that's appropriate is the type that's keeping with the scale and character of the existing built form. There's no concept that as a city grows significantly over time, that perhaps much of its fabric should transform significantly as well. I'm guessing that the only reason things would have been different in Europe is that it seems more of the cities were already established with extensive urban fabric before the popularization of cars meaning that things has to be close together for transportation purposes, yet there was a physical limit to the built density since it was before the proliferation of highrises. So much of the city had to be tightly packed with smaller lowrise and midrise buildings.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Certainly the dimensions and proportions of buildings in Halifax are likely more similar to other small cities in NA while those of European small cities are more similar to one another. But whether that observation as an advantage, disadvantage or neither in terms of urban fabric/streetscape quality is another question.

.

I've only very rarely been in places where the tall height of buildings contributed anything to the pedestrian experience. It's always either been neutral or a negative.

[kool maudit]

I should note that my original praise for Stockholm was not just a proxy vote for European-style cities.

It's a city on a beautiful archipelago with wonderful parks, an extensive and fascinating metro system, impressive landmarks, lively streets, and all that.

[Acajack]

For people used to navigating North American cities, without being exactly the same it's also quite user-friendly. This is a characteristic it shares with a number of cities in Northern Europe.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for the height of the buildings above you, I don't know that that makes much of a difference (4-6 storeys vs. 20) to the experience you get walking around. If anything in terms of wind and shade, more height may actually make it less nice of an urban space.

Those buildings have stuff in them though. They are not empty boxes. They add businesses, employment opportunities, and places to live as well as vibrancy, and they can be interesting architecturally.

I don't agree with the idea of comparing cities by pretending that anything above floor 6 doesn't exist.

Most North American cities have grown a lot in recent decades so they are faced with the decision of how to redevelop themselves to increase density and reduce the cost of travel. Highrises are a nice way to do this because they add a lot of density while disrupting a smaller percentage of the land and making heritage preservation possible. Instead of tearing down the whole downtown and rebuilding at 8 floors instead of 3 you tear down 10% of the buildings and put up highrises.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Those buildings have stuff in them though. They are not empty boxes. They add businesses, employment opportunities, and places to live as well as vibrancy, and they can be interesting architecturally.

I don't agree with the idea of comparing cities by pretending that anything above floor 6 doesn't exist.

Most North American cities have grown a lot in recent decades so they are faced with the decision of how to redevelop themselves to increase density and reduce the cost of travel. Highrises are a nice way to do this because they add a lot of density while disrupting a smaller percentage of the land and making heritage preservation possible. Instead of tearing down the whole downtown and rebuilding at 8 floors instead of 3 you tear down 10% of the buildings and put up highrises.

I definitely see your point. Though I don't necessarily see that as a clear "North American advantage".

It's just working with the hand we've been dealt.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not indifferent to "charm". In fact, it tugs at my heart strings. But charm doesn't do much to get me cough syrup for my kids at 11:30 pm.

Now that I'm older and set in my ways, I've come to realize that I take a lot of things in North American life* for granted, convenience and perceived generosity (material and of spirit) being two critical ones that would make me think twice about the prospect of long-term residence in Europe.

I'll never forget walking out to the taxi rank at Stansted and being told by a driver in no uncertain terms that we needed to purchase a voucher in the airport stating our destination before we could set foot in a taxi. I've never been in Europe in the summer, but I've heard numerous stories about how the North American ice free-for-all is totally foreign there, and...gulp...I'm not sure how I would cope with that. Between May and October (well, not this fargin' October) I need ice all the time. On longer car trips my wife and I often request and receive a separate cup of ice at drive-thrus to put into our water bottle, to go along with whatever iced coffee drinks we're getting. On long bike rides in the summer heat I've stopped in at 7-Elevens to fill my water bottles with ice. Is that going to happen in Italy?

I'm also pretty dependent upon late night shopping and various 24-hour services. And paying to use public washrooms? I would find that difficult. Not to mention the sterner engagement with the public in the shops. I can't count the number of times I've gotten free samples and extra little things in local shops like bakeries or whatever here. How much generosity of spirit emanates from behind the counter in a bakery in Germany? Or Spain (the dourest Latin country going)? Never mind getting into long, cheery conversations with proprietors. The friendliness of strangers is not a thing in Stuttgart.

That's my paean to Canadian life right there.


*Funnily enough, East Asia, the only other place I've lived in and travelled in a lot, takes North American convenience and generosity to a whole other level.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Now that I'm older and set in my ways, I've come to realize that I take a lot of things in North American life* for granted, convenience and perceived generosity (material and of spirit) being two critical ones that would make me think twice about the prospect of long-term residence in Europe.

I'll never forget walking out to the taxi rank at Stansted and being told by a driver in no uncertain terms that we needed to purchase a voucher in the airport stating our destination before we could set foot in a taxi. I've never been in Europe in the summer, but I've heard numerous stories about how the North American ice free-for-all is totally foreign there, and...gulp...I'm not sure how I would cope with that. Between May and October (well, not this fargin' October) I need ice all the time. On longer car trips my wife and I often request and receive a separate cup of ice at drive-thrus to put into our water bottle, to go along with whatever iced coffee drinks we're getting. On long bike rides in the summer heat I've stopped in at 7-Elevens to fill my water bottles with ice. Is that going to happen in Italy?

I'm also pretty dependent upon late night shopping and various 24-hour services. And paying to use public washrooms? I would find that difficult. Not to mention the sterner engagement with the public in the shops. I can't count the number of times I've gotten free samples and extra little things in local shops like bakeries or whatever here. How much generosity of spirit emanates from behind the counter in a bakery in Germany? Or Spain (the dourest Latin country going)? Never mind getting into long, cheery conversations with proprietors. The friendliness of strangers is not a thing in Stuttgart.

That's my paean to Canadian life right there.


*Funnily enough, East Asia, the only other place I've lived in and travelled in a lot, takes North American convenience and generosity to a whole other level.

Admittedly, at least part of that is simply knowing the ins and outs of where you live. There are definitely inconveniences that we encounter in Europe that locals will not because they are "in the know", and of course inconveniences here that Europeans encounter and that we don't know about.

But overall, yes this tends to me a more user-friendly landmass.

And you're right about Asia going even further in terms of being able to easily access anything you need anytime anywhere.

[Chadillaccc]

By the way, as one of the two people who started this discussion which has apparently devolved into a two-day Eastern forumer tirade, no one was saying North American cities are superior to European cities, just that our skylines are significantly more impressive pound for pound. That is of course not a comment on the vitality or perceived superiority of the cities themselves. I was not making a comment on Calgary being better than Helsinki. In fact, the discussion started with my misunderstanding saying that Calgary forumers don't shit on Helsinki. However, what would I expect from the likes of you all? Of course you'll turn it into three pages of total nonsense making fun of things no one even said Totally pathetic.


Now for more skylines...


IG @ mikemaciaszek - https://www.instagram.com/mikemaciaszek/

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I definitely see your point. Though I don't necessarily see that as a clear "North American advantage".

One advantage is that the highrises tend to be a lot cheaper (lower land cost per floor of usable space), and the big buildings have more amenities (costs shared among more tenants). One of the apartment buildings that was completed last year right in the middle of downtown Halifax has a swimming pool and gym in it as well as some restaurants and commercial space, big rooftop patio, lobby space, big balconies, etc. The units start at 600 square feet and rent for around $1500 a month.

It's not possible to build something like that to 6 storeys in a valuable urban area with the same level of affordability. And I'm guessing it would be hard to find that kind of living arrangement in most European cities. The large commercial complexes have similar advantages. Perhaps this isn't an urban aesthetic advantage (I actually do like the taller buildings and a mix of large and small buildings), but it sure is a livability advantage. The people in the highrise also get nicer views and more sun than they would in a lowrise.

In the long run I also think the larger scale North American development is going to produce a bunch of neighbourhoods that are much more vibrant than the traditional European scale allows for.