Broadway Corridor Updates

[GenWhy?]

My gut tells me the ODP will not contain "future station" TOA planning, but will include new zoning so folks don't need to use CD-1s as much (those are supposed to be mostly ready by 2025) I'd expect once the station locations are confirmed that the TOA policy and ODP would be revised.

The ODP is supposed to be in place by 2026 with a review in 2031, 2036, etc.

The Province could announce UBC extension information / confirmation of station locations by 2030 and I bet the zoning changes would happen over the course of a year for the 2031 ODP update. If the TOA policy is still in place.

EDIT: Reading through the TOA Rezoning Policy for the City of Vancouver (which is new and I've never read yet / didn't know existed)... it looks like once the Province declares new official TOAs a developer could rezone to meet the provincial minimums, regardless of the local area plan. I assume that rezoning would be to change it to the 2025 / 2026 updated district schedules. Since TOAs are in the ODP... I assume there would be no public hearing or drawn-out process, just a few legal items similar to townhomes in Cambie Corridor.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Why? The westend had 1000s of units built without having mass transit. Personally, I don’t get the waiting. Let’s get 12,000 units proposed west of arbutus now. If anything it will help to put more pressure on getting the ubc extension built.

The West End and West Point Grey have totally different contexts. Only a quarter of West End residents drove to work, and 45% walked or biked in 2016. In West Point Grey under 18% walked and biked, and 52% drove. So Additional density added to West Point Grey would be better if it related to where rapid transit stations are going to be located, and we don't yet know where those are going to be.

In the meantime, there are already projects like Alma that are allowed to develop at higher densities. The Safeway redevelopment on West 10th is proposing 19 and 21 storey towers, very similar to the heights the Broadway Plan allows. And there's a secured rental building proposed on the 3900 block of W10th in the R1-1 zone, and another 6 storey 3.5FSR in the 3800 block recently approved. It's not like the area isn't getting more housing already.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The West End and West Point Grey have totally different contexts. Only a quarter of West End residents drove to work, and 45% walked or biked in 2016. In West Point Grey under 18% walked and biked, and 52% drove. So Additional density added to West Point Grey would be better if it related to where rapid transit stations are going to be located, and we don't yet know where those are going to be.

The West End probably didn't start with those transportation dynamics, yet it worked out well.

Of course we know where the stations will be.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The West End and West Point Grey have totally different contexts. Only a quarter of West End residents drove to work, and 45% walked or biked in 2016. In West Point Grey under 18% walked and biked, and 52% drove. So Additional density added to West Point Grey would be better if it related to where rapid transit stations are going to be located, and we don't yet know where those are going to be.

Can we stop pretending that we don't know where the stations are going to be? They're going to be on Macdonald, Alma, and around Crown Crescent and W 8th (Jericho). That's what the City of Vancouver has confirmed, and what common sense tells us. The only question is if Sasamat or Blanca will get one, so I would say to limit non-arterial upzoning for now past Trimble.

I would also bet that when the subway goes in and more office space goes up in the Broadway Plan area, more people will be commuting there by Skytrain and bike. The present built form isn't much of an indication of what future commuting patterns will be. Much like the West End, WPG will be a denser residential area adjacent to a large employment centre, just that WPG will have a Skytrain where the West End does not.

Again, the problem with all the development proposals in WPG now is that they are on arteries. We need to legalize 20 storey tower developments going up on non arterials too.

[GenWhy?]

This Council is not enacting a TOA rezoning plan / area plan without the station locations confirmed by the Province.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The West End probably didn't start with those transportation dynamics, yet it worked out well.

Of course we know where the stations will be.

If I wasn't clear, nearly three times the West End population walk or bike to work than the West Point Grey population. That proximity to Downtown has always been there, and has always allowed residents to commute without a car, or using transit. That's never likely to be true west of Arbutus.

And while we think we know where the stations will be, we could be wrong. The City expected a station at Oak. They even reserved a possible station access in the new office building that Bosa built there. But the station, even though it's called Oak VGH, is actually located a block away.

The current geotechnical survey work might show potential problems for the currently anticipated locations, which would mean they get moved. It wouldn't make any sense to approve development in advance of knowing the accurate station locations, and how much of the street frontage will need to be acquired by the Province or TransLink to allow construction to take place.

This isn't a case of never allowing significant future density, it's just being intelligent about when to proceed with detailed planning, once it's decided exactly how and where (and ideally when), the line will be built. In the meantime there are other policies that allow some new development to proceed.

[seamusmcduff]

Has the current council done anything on housing? Every current policy seems to be thanks to someone else.

Broadway plan, cambie plan, arterial rental policy are thanks to previous councils. Multiplexes were approved by them, but would have been required by the province, and their policy is less dense than what the province recommends. Province is responsible for TOD policy.

I will give them credit for approving applications under these policies and not moving backwards, but really they are the status quo party in my view. They haven't really done anything to add to the existing policy we have, unless I'm forgetting something?

At least it won't be too much of an issue for a while, as there is a ton of untapped density under the current plans, but it would be nice if they were looking to address the shortage of missing middle and family oriented housing.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Changing City

And while we think we know where the stations will be, we could be wrong. The City expected a station at Oak. They even reserved a possible station access in the new office building that Bosa built there. But the station, even though it's called Oak VGH, is actually located a block away.

This is so unserious. The station is one block away, it changes absolutely nothing when it comes to adding density. A zoning map with the station on Oak and the zoning map with the station on Laurel probably look 99.5% the same, at least.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by seamusmcduff

Has the current council done anything on housing? Every current policy seems to be thanks to someone else.

They've increased FSR beyond that the province mandates around stations, are putting forth the Renfrew Rupert plan (which goes way beyond too), and rubber stamp every proposal that comes their way. ABC is the most YIMBY council in Metro Vancouver (and don't say Burnaby, they've regressed heavily)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Debatable - the 7-3 vote to reject density in Shaughnessy was along partisan lines. Guess which seven voted against it?

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Again, the problem with all the development proposals in WPG now is that they are on arteries. We need to legalize 20 storey tower developments going up on non arterials too.

And we can do that once the SkyTrain comes in; without it, you'll either have more drivers or an overloaded 99 (again). 20 floors on 12th and 6th isn't a bad idea in 2030. Now? It's the Surrey streetcar repeating itself.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think sometimes you can pinpoint exactly where somebody lives when certain developments get talked about.

In this specific context, Senakw and 1477 are much closer to home. I'll let my support for those speak for itself.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

They've increased FSR beyond that the province mandates around stations, are putting forth the Renfrew Rupert plan (which goes way beyond too), and rubber stamp every proposal that comes their way. ABC is the most YIMBY council in Metro Vancouver (and don't say Burnaby, they've regressed heavily)

They campaigned on streamlining applications and approving them a lot faster. I don't think a lot needs to be rezoned per se, there is plenty of space available for dense development. Getting it through the process more quickly and easily is key.

I don't know if they've made much progress on that though.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And we can do that once the SkyTrain comes in; without it, you'll either have more drivers or an overloaded 99 (again). 20 floors on 12th and 6th isn't a bad idea in 2030. Now? It's the Surrey streetcar repeating itself.

What? How is this the Surrey Streetcar? One is housing, another is a mode of transporation? That's not an apples to orange comparison, it's like, comparing milkshakes with the milankovitch cycles. Again, I've said this a million times, if we upzoned WPG today, we wouldn't see the first developments near completion until at least 2031, and it wouldn't be until way longer that the neighbourhood would resemble at all the West End. Just because it is upzoned doesn't mean the building sprout overnight. It is precisely for this reason we should upzone sooner than later. It's like saying we shouldn't plant trees because we won't need the shade until 2050...the best time to do it is now.

Not to mention there are plently of bus routes in WPG that go downtown and to the Broadway corridor. A few buildings completing before UBCx finishes will not overwhelm the system.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

What? How is this the Surrey Streetcar? One is housing, another is a mode of transporation? That's not an apples to orange comparison, it's like, comparing milkshakes with the milankovitch cycles. Again, I've said this a million times, if we upzoned WPG today, we wouldn't see the first developments near completion until at least 2031, and it wouldn't be until way longer that the neighbourhood would resemble at all the West End. Just because it is upzoned doesn't mean the building sprout overnight. It is precisely for this reason we should upzone sooner than later. It's like saying we shouldn't plant trees because we won't need the shade until 2050...the best time to do it is now.

You'll need to convince the general public first. Then elect new council. Then get the ODP to include / amend it to incorporate the changes you seek.

It's not happening this council before the Province designates those stations as TOAs.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

- snip -

Were you here for the Surrey streetcar? Linda Hepner and Surrey First intentionally underbuilt the train and overzoned the density in order to maximize profit. The whole thing was their attempt to imitate Metrotown's condo rush for a song, and the end result would've been too many people on too small a rapid transit line; that's why Surrey First isn't in charge anymore.

You said yourself that ABC rubber stamps most developments; 2031 is far too pessimistic. Once the SkyTrain comes, you can have all the 20-floors you want (maybe even 40 floors at the stations). Pass a zoning plan now? We'll get an average of 10 floors - because that's what the 99 can handle.

Sure. And that's why it's "a few buildings" at a time for now.

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

You'll need to convince the general public first. Then elect new council. Then get the ODP to include / amend it to incorporate the changes you seek.

It's not happening this council before the Province designates those stations as TOAs.

And the Province isn't moving until the SkyTrain is.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

This is so unserious. The station is one block away, it changes absolutely nothing when it comes to adding density. A zoning map with the station on Oak and the zoning map with the station on Laurel probably look 99.5% the same, at least.

You have to understand that for a lot of people in Vancouver, urban planning exclusively means deciding what needs to be regulated and manually approved, not what needs to be deregulated and allowed to naturally happen. How can we properly impose the absolute best regulations on developers if we don't know exactly what we can regulate yet? Any building could in the future be right next to a Skytrain station, so all buildings must be blocked until we figure out which one it will be.

It's infuriating.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Any novel about Victorian London will explain why letting the free market build your city for you is a bad idea. It's always got to be a mix of public and private.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Any novel about Victorian London will explain why letting the free market build your city for you is a bad idea. It's always got to be a mix of public and private.

Any former communist country will explain why letting councils determine production quotas is a bad idea for supply. It's got to be a mix of public and private.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Any former communist country will explain why letting councils determine production quotas is a bad idea for supply. It's got to be a mix of public and private.

Which is why the there's plenty of quota all over Vancouver, including the segment of Broadway in question.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which is why the there's plenty of quota all over Vancouver, including the segment of Broadway in question.

I will defer to my previous arguments. If you honestly believe there's plenty of quota all over Vancouver and in the future UBCx expansion region, we are simply living in different worlds.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I will defer to my previous arguments. If you honestly believe there's plenty of quota all over Vancouver, we are simply living in different worlds.

A few blocks of lowrises or missing middle = one block of highrises - that's how basement suites created more density than all of Brentwood and Metrotown.

And if you don't count Jericho and the 50k+ units' worth of redevelopment along Cambie and Central Broadway as quota, we are definitely in different worlds. We are in the middle of the most residential planning and construction in the history of the densest city in Canada.