[St. John's] The Official Project Thread

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

hahaha
So Pretty much the trades people who would build the $75 million building and the under 40 educated people who would be the ones using the office space weren't represented.

Thery were probably there ... but wouldn't speak in fear of being lifted off and thrown off signal hill ... there were alot of people that were mumbling on the way out the door about how unproductive this was and how bias the speakers were ... and i know why people wouldn't speak up against any of the crazy things people were saying .. cuz they were afraid they'd get stabed with a cheap paint brush lol ... but that crowd that you see wasn't all against fortis or even there to talk about fortis ..

[PoscStudent]

There is talk that the business community is going to have their own meeting in support of development, hopefully if this happens they will be able to attract several hundred pro-developers to show council that there are plenty of people who support this plan as well as other similar ones.

Also people who want to see these development go ahead should start emailing the mayor and councillors to share their opinions, It's not easy to go to these meetings, due to the fair of getting stabbed with a paint brush, but you can send an email easily and it could make a difference.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

There is talk that the business community is going to have their own meeting in support of development, hopefully if this happens they will be able to attract several hundred pro-developers to show council that there are plenty of people who support this plan as well as other similar ones.

Also people who want to see these development go ahead should start emailing the mayor and councillors to share their opinions, It's not easy to go to these meetings, due to the fair of getting stabbed with a paint brush, but you can send an email easily and it could make a difference.

I really hope they do have this meeting! ...
i am a bit torn on all this ... cuz i am a huge supporter of large developments like these and in the context of the area the fortis development is great ( the design could be improved but it's still needed) however i do wish that there was a modern district and clear regulations all over the downtown where as it acomidates both sides of the argment... but if council is going to do the whole no definate strict modern district then these are good developments... however maybe this type of an idea of a modern district would come from a meeting that is pro development and not just protesting ... i think this meeting is needed! and i'll be there!

[Horsell]

I've been following this forum for some time now and finally decided to wade into the debate over the recent development proposals for downtown St. John's. I'll be the first to admit that there are portions of Water and Duckworth Streets that could use a good bulldozer or wrecking ball however I think we all should take time to think about what we want the alternative to be. Above all, whether any new development is 4 stories or 40 stories it should reflect the character of the oldest city in North America and more importantly it should PROTECT that character.

Overall I am pro-development but what disappoints me about some of the recent proposals (Fortis and the Woolwoorth's building) is a lack of imagination in the designs and in the case of Fortis the total disregard for the guidelines in place.

I understand the economics in play and the need for any developer to maximize their return on investment however there are rules that must be abided by. From the two pictures I've seen of the Fortis proposal I would have to say that for the most part it isn't too bad with the exception of the second 15 story glass cube. That just blows me away. I could accept the redevelopment of the existing tower on the basis of grandfathering it in and the majority of the other portion is visually appealing but that glass cube is beyond reproach. An interesting debate lies ahead, and has already started.

With regards to the Woolworths proposal I was equally appalled at how sterile it looks from the images published. The alternative proposal posted earlier in this thread by Nando is marginally more appealing but not much better. Haven't we learned from Atlantic Place that parking garages don't need to be so prominent?

This location, even more so than the Fortis location, offers an opportunity to develop a new focal point for Downtown. There is a proposal in the works for the vacant property next to the Woolworth's building and Templeton's has had a proposal on the books for about 5 years now that isn't half bad. What an opportunity for these property owners to get together and with the help of a creative architectural team come up with a complete redevelopment of the block with parking, open plazas, retail and office space and maybe even residential properties. How much would a condo fetch on the 10th or 12th floor (maybe even 15th) of a building in that location with an unobstructed view out the harbor?

What amazes me in this recent debate is the fact that there is actually plenty of vacant and under-utilized land within a stones throw of what is being called "downtown" and it has been zoned for "high rises" (by our standards) for 30 years and it is right under our noses next to the Delta and west to Hamilton Ave. Other cities would salivate at having that much land available so close to the existing "core". I would almost go so far as to say that instead of height restrictions there should be "minimum" height requirements in this area in order to maximize the benefit of the land. For example, Steele Hotels has approval for a 6 story (maybe 5?) next to the Magic Wok, why not "insist" that it be 8 or 10.

One thing that seems to be missing is a "Vision" of what we want downtown St. John's to be next year and 20 or 30 years from now. The current "planning" process by the city is ad-hoc at best and in reality close to non-existent. I have lived in other places that actually spell out in a 20 year plan which properties should be redeveloped and for what purpose.

In the past few weeks many have said that we are at a crossroads in the development of downtown, I only hope we get it right because if we don't, the mistakes made with Atlantic Place (especially the garage) and Scotia Place will only be a joke.

[Architype]

^ Thanks Horsell, for making that well thought out post, and welcome to the forum. Most people, and those in the other posts about the meetings etc., have been making many of those same points all along, so most are in complete agreement. What you have are market forces which are usually somewhat at odds with city planning. If not for planning and foresight though, there would be no Central Park in NYC, and no Stanley Park in Vancouver - those would be prime real estate and built up with the largest and most expensive developments. Heritage areas can be thought of in much the same way, even though they can be at odds with the natural inclination to build the biggest at the centre (i.e. the Fortis harbourfront property). The resulting answer and compromise is to actively encourage those developments in the alternative areas of the downtown. The area provided in the West End needs to be expanded and the height restrictions in those areas need to be relaxed. These companies providing "class A" office space do not want to locate in Mt Pearl industrial parks; if they did it wouldn't be "class A" any more (I mean have a look at those areas; they're considerably less than inspiring).

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by Architype

^ Thanks Horsell, for making that well thought out post, and welcome to the forum. Most people, and those in the other posts about the meetings etc., have been making many of those same points all along, so most are in complete agreement. What you have are market forces which are usually somewhat at odds with city planning. If not for planning and foresight though, there would be no Central Park in NYC, and no Stanley Park in Vancouver - those would be prime real estate and built up with the largest and most expensive developments. Heritage areas can be thought of in much the same way, even though they can be at odds with the natural inclination to build the biggest at the centre (i.e. the Fortis harbourfront property). The resulting answer and compromise is to actively encourage those developments in the alternative areas of the downtown. The area provided in the West End needs to be expanded and the height restrictions in those areas need to be relaxed. These companies providing "class A" office space do not want to locate in Mt Pearl industrial parks; if they did it wouldn't be "class A" any more (I mean have a look at those areas; they're considerably less than inspiring).

I completely agree with you and the previous post ... so how do we make this happen is the question? ... shouldn't there be a public meeting for cooperation between everyone? and sharing the veiw of what we want DT to be with dialogue between citizens and council and developers? so we can impliment a vision? ... like how do we make this happen?

[davelane]

This is such a great forum...

What is so interesting in this entire debate is that there appears to be a wide consensus: development is good, and it's much better when done thoughtfully.

Architype's suggestion, "The resulting answer and compromise is to actively encourage those developments in the alternative areas of the downtown" is fantastic, and Jeddy1989 raised an important question: "how do we make this happen?"

The first step, in my opinion, is to ensure that this issue stays in the public eye until some real movement is made toward reviewing the city plan. One does exist, but for some reason City Hall has stopped adhering to it, and as pointed out by the Mayor and Fortis, it's up to Council to decide whether proposals are accepted or rejected. Unfortunately this reduces our future to a political football and that's simply unacceptable.

So, as was suggested in this forum, write to council. Keep writing on this forum. Check out other forums like google groups and facebook. Contribute to the discussion! And if you have the wherewithal to do so, plan and promote public events.

We all love this city, and we all want it to grow and prosper! We are so rich with talent, passion, and resources - let's put them to use.

[Architype]

Historic Trust Releases Report on Water Street Buildings

The Newfoundland Historic Trust has released it's list of Buildings at Risk in the province, and it includes 151 to 167 Water Street in St. John's, the block of buildings slated for demolition by Fortis. . . .Numbers 159 to 161 Water Street were constructed in 1914

Source: http://www.vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&id=4295

Complete PDF file: http://www.historictrust.ca/images/N...iskFeb2010.pdf
http://www.historictrust.ca/

These are not among the most historic buildings in St. John's, some are less than 100 years old, but I would be in favour of facade retention as part of a redevelopment. Most of the heritage value is in the streetscape; it would be really cool, and a first for St. John's.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Architype

The Newfoundland Historic Trust has released it's list of Buildings at Risk in the province, and it includes 151 to 167 Water Street in St. John's, the block of buildings slated for demolition by Fortis. . . .Numbers 159 to 161 Water Street were constructed in 1914

Even more of a reason to go ahead with the Fortis development.

[NLJP]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

hahaha
So Pretty much the trades people who would build the $75 million building and the under 40 educated people who would be the ones using the office space weren't represented.

Of course not. That would mean a balanced and equal discussion took place, which was far from what went on down at that meeting the other night.

A friend of mine was there, I wish I could have went...whatever worth that would be, discussion and good planning is essential but it's no secret that Monday's night meeting was on the far anti-development side.

[Architype]

Council Receives Official Proposal for Office Building

St.John's City Hall now officially has a proposal for an office building at the former Woolworth's site. Preliminary plans call for 12 storeys, including multiple levels of parking. Deputy Mayor Shannie Duff notes the site is not in an historic precinct. She says they were advised to treat it as a transitional zone. . .

Source Article:
http://www.vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&id=4305

^ It looks like this one has a better chance of approval.

___________________________________


Also; some interesting views of the Fortis proposal by blogger Greg Locke can be found here;
"City views indicating location of proposed Fortis project":
Images 1
Images 2
Images 3

Main page link:
http://blog.greglocke.com/blog/_arch...5/4456966.html

[nl_eng]

Originally Posted by Architype

Complete PDF file: http://www.historictrust.ca/images/N...iskFeb2010.pdf
http://www.historictrust.ca/

I'm a bit skeptical of this "Buildings at Risk" report. They list the Newman Building as one of the "historic" buildings at risk (not the Wine Vaults building). There's nothing historic about the Newman Building - it just happens to be next door to the historic Wine Vaults, to which it has no connection beyond the name "Newman". Well, if you count that it houses Heritage Newfoundland and Labrador, that's about it's only 'heritage' value!

In my opinion, the only reason for it to be in that report is because it needs a paint job and some maintenance work in a few areas, and what better way to force the provincial government into doing such maintenance than to claim the building is historic and "at risk"!

[niccanning]

Thanks for that update.

It really is the vocal minority who show up to these completely unproductive meetings. Drives me insane! I'm surprised anyone would consider developing here!
What can we do to agree on development here that will please everyone.
I think Nolan and Hall should be consulted on all projects. They've done pretty amazing things in the city.

[ConundrumNL]

Semi-related to development in the downtown.

Last Saturday I went to the Keg for supper, finding a parking spot was painful as the Motor Cross show was happening at Mile One at the time. I managed to find a spot by Eastern Edge Gallery, on the walk to the Keg I noticed that both the Atlantic Place and Bowring Centre garages were empty and closed.

I don't get it, everyone is complaining about the parking downtown, but during an event the biggest garages are closed. How come the city isn't engaging the garage owners about opening during large events and weekends? They could make a killing at $10 a pop.

[Architype]

^ That one leaves me wondering; what good is it to have parking if it isn't available for use?

________________________

For anyone interested, there is still more being written about the Fortis and Woolworths proposals:

A tale of two cities
Or, at the very least, two parts of the same city

The Fortis proposal for the east end of Water Street has rightly prompted debate. Yet the proposal for the former Woolworth's site at the west end has received relatively little attention.
Similar concerns
It seems to me that some of the objections to the Fortis plan apply also in this case.

Link to complete article & comments:
http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sc=87

Committee for a Happy City
The St . John’s Waltz towards developing downtown
Link from The Current (PDF):
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X134...ntfeb19low.pdf

[niccanning]

I've read that the city and bar owners on george street are planning a much needed overhaul.

http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=160133&sc=85

That was clearly a while ago, '08 I think, and I was wondering if there has been any updates.

The city's website has some sketches of what it may look like. They're pretty great actually. Unfortunately I can't access it now. Site must be down!

[niccanning]

actually, this link from The Scope has some images.

http://thescope.ca/storefront/storefront-20

I like the idea of having bar decks sprawling out into the street. It will be great in the summer time. The lighting looks very nice as well.

[Architype]

Here is a photo approximation showing one view of how the two new projects would look if built, please excuse the imperfections. From this angle Fortis blocks the view of the courthouse, and Woolworth's blocks the view of the Delta Hotel. Keep in mind the Woolworth's design is most likely not finalized.


Source - photo by me

One thing I noticed is that available harbourfront property is very limited. If these two were built, there would be only three remaining harbourfront sites west of Prescott which could potentially accomodate large buildings, regardless of height (and all are presently occupied). With this in mind, the quality of the designs should be considered very carefully.

[jeddy1989]

WOW it looks awesome! good job on the pic! one thing .. maybe you could edit it to include the hotel across the street from fortis ... this is realy cool .. it definatly gives you and idea as to how the downtown could look! .. i personaly think it looks awesome (and if they could get even more createive in the design it would be a bonus)

[PoscStudent]

I think the picture looks great and none of the new buildings are that predominant that they take away from what is already there.