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  #901  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2008, 2:28 PM
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Sorry, guys, I was watching the kids for my wife's meeting and putting up plywood over a window that still has holes in it from the May hailstorm - I wish I could have made it.

Was there a lot of support for Speedway or did that die off? I was never particularly convinced that the plan to re-center campus around San Jacinto was anything more than talk when the university told us that years ago at the UTC, and remain unconvinced today. The UT shuttle system is irrelevant as far as the streetcar system goes, IMO - there's not likely to be any non-trivial numbers of people wanting to transfer from one to the other.

The Chronicle posted some stuff about the Elgin branch for commuter rail today, to which I've already responded.
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  #902  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2008, 8:50 PM
Samwill89 Samwill89 is offline
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Among students, there was a lot of support for the Speedway route (or Guadalupe or San Antonio alternatives), but, according to the University Master Plan, San Jacinto has been designated as the potential route. The university wants to preserve the trees on Speedway and turn the street into a pedestrian plaza.

Also, the university feels that bringing rail to San Jacinto would help with the Waller-Creek improvement and help facilitate development in the East Campus area with more TODs.

Another thing that the University fears is that Speedway has heavy pedestrian and bicycle traffic, so placing the line there could potentially cause safety concerns.

You could always go to the next event planned, the forum with Mayor Will Wynn and UT President Bill Powers in the UT Student Union Ballroom on Oct 15th. More info can be found here:

http://rail4real.org/
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  #903  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 1:38 AM
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http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A671774

Tracking Cap Metro's Eastward Proposal
The Green Line takes conceptual shape
BY KATHERINE GREGOR





Green for Sustainability: If commuters could ditch their cars and take the Green Line instead, the region could enjoy numerous environmental benefits. This map's overlay of regional rail onto "The Travis County Greenprint" map also highlights the issue of land conservation. Capital Metro's vision is for dense transit-oriented development within a half-mile of the Green Line, concentrating new residents around six outlying rail stations. If carefully implemented – with proactive conservation measures – this growth pattern could help protect surrounding rural, historic, agricultural, and environmentally sensitive lands, much of it currently undeveloped pasture or open land. The river and creek shorelines (shown in red here) merit particular attention. Shown is the Greenprint's ranking of individual tracts by "overall conservation priorities," a blend of four priorities.
DOWNLOAD A LARGER MAP
Is passenger rail for the East Austin growth corridor a wise regional transportation investment? For the first time, the just-released Capital Metro report "Austin-Manor-Elgin Corridor: A Preliminary Review" provides the hard data – or at least good estimates – to make that call. In sum, the report makes the case for expanding the region's commuter rail system by adding a second, eastward Green Line to complement the westerly Red Line – although its feasibility depends on whether the tracks can become lined with dense new transit villages developed around passenger stations.

The Cap Metro report provides responses to the 11 multipart questions in the Trans­port­a­tion Investment Decision Tree adopted in May by the Transit Working Group. That committee of the Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Organization will meet to publicly vet the Green Line proposal in mid-October; in November it could consider a streetcar urban circulator proposal. The brainchild of state Sen. Kirk Watson, the Decision Tree requires a holistic cost-benefit analysis based on regional values and overall planning goals. As CAMPO chair, Watson pushed for a new evaluation process to pre-empt both knee-jerk "costs too much, does too little" rejections of rail transit and "all rail is good" rubber-stamping (see "Working on the Railroad," Feb. 22).

Likely to engage Central Texans most are the benefits addressed under question No. 2: Mobility, economic development, environmental and public health, and social equity/quality of life. While the report is rich in data, the numerous attached letters of support speak warmly to the transformative power of the project. "This future transit service will enable abundant and permanent mobility, economic, health, sustainability, and social equity benefits," states Doug Farr, a consultant for the city of Elgin on sustainable urbanism. "Corridors integrating transit and land use are essential strategies in the long-term sustainability and competitiveness of regions." He adds, "Communities around the country (and world) are investing in transit and integrating it with patterns of land settlement that support both human and environmental health, sustainable neighborhoods and districts."

Human development has always followed rivers, roads, and railroad tracks. In other locales, commuter rail lines are proving powerful "people magnets" when combined with transit-oriented development – the more sustainable land-use patterns referenced by Farr. Mindful of air quality, environment, and climate protection, Cap Metro argues that the Green Line can help our fast-growing region grow more wisely.


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Ridership: Will They Come?
On its face, the current population along the route isn't dense enough to justify the estimated system costs: $161 million to $192 million in capital expenses and $10 million annually for operations and maintenance. While about 50% of the Elgin work force commutes to Austin, for example, that community has only about 10,000 residents. Yet by 2030, the report projects 7,000 to 12,000 regular weekday riders – or up to as many as 18,000. Add weekend and reverse-commute riders, and the estimated annual total surpasses 3 million riders. According to the report, that puts the annualized cost per passenger mile in the range of 64 cents to $1.20.

Cap Metro's Todd Hemingson characterizes the Green Line ridership numbers as "very reasonable early estimates." The consultant team led by Parsons Brinckerhoff derived them from existing transportation data for Central Texas. More detailed ridership forecasting would be done as the project advances; for example, initial ridership data on the Capital MetroRail Red Line to Leander would be incorporated. CAMPO staffers are working on enhanced passenger rail modeling within their official regional travel model; Hemingson said that "will ultimately be the best tool for predicting future ridership."

Is it plausible that, within a couple of decades, 12,000 daily rail commuters really might use this line? Between Manor and Elgin, much of the land traversed by the existing tracks is undeveloped pasture and farmland. But Central Texas is expected to have gained 1 million more people some time between 2030 and 2040. If 10% of them settle along the East Austin growth corridor, that would add 100,000 in population; if just 10% of those folks commuted by rail daily, that translates to 10,000 Green Line riders. Many Central Austinites aren't crazy about adding more density, congestion, and infrastructure strains to their older neighborhoods. Presumably, NIMBYs would be enthusiastic about encouraging the Austin-migrating hordes to settle instead along a commuter rail line that stretches out to Elgin. "I do indeed believe that specific corridor will grow like crazy over the next 30 years," commented city of Austin demographer Ryan Robinson.

If that's true, how best to plan that growth?


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Social Equity
Another key benefit touted in the Cap Metro report is that offering rail transit to residents of East Austin and to the communities around Manor and Elgin can advance social equity. In part because housing is cheaper farther out from Austin, many current corridor residents are of low to moderate income and people of color. In the city of Elgin, the median household income is just more than $48,000 (nearly $20,000 lower than in Austin). About 46% are Hispanic, about 15% African-American, 21% Anglo, and 17% other. Of the 3,700 students in the Elgin Independent School District, about 2,300 (62%) are economically disadvantaged. As gas prices rise, residents who moved to the area for affordable housing are finding that the cost of commuting is eating up the savings. The report and supporting letters sing the benefits of providing strapped, far-flung households with transit for access to the jobs, resources, education, and health care available in Austin. By allowing residents, in theory, to get by with one less car, the Green Line could ease life for working-class families.

But here's the rub. The report simultaneously touts the heady powers of transit-oriented development to increase property values. A study of just the Austin-Manor portion projects a $398 million increase in the property tax base by 2030, with 16% directly due to new passenger rail. Those increases – the additional increment in property value – likely would be captured to help finance the project. To be sure, darling New Urbanist villages developing around rail stops, chock-full of swank condos and upscale retail, would provide the richest tax increment financing for the line. But as we've already seen on the near Eastside, such gentrification also becomes a recipe for displacing longtime residents.

Hemingson noted that jurisdictions with land-use authority around the rail stations could enact an affordable-housing plan for the TODs, involving the affected communities. "Capital Metro will work closely with stakeholders and municipalities as this effort progresses, building upon the station area planning that the City of Austin is now wrapping up," he said by e-mail. (So far, Austin's City Council has stood by an ambitious goal of 25% affordable housing within TODs.) "Lessons learned and best practices can be applied to the A-M-E line. Also, while the alignment does pass through developed areas close to Austin, much of the route traverses rural, largely undeveloped land, which minimizes any potential displacement."


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Preservation Needs
A primary reason for initially designating the East Austin growth corridor was to encourage new regional development to move away from the Edwards Aquifer and the city's Drinking Water Protection Zone. The Green Line, in theory, could prove a powerful driver in achieving this environmental goal.

However, there's no Save Our Springs Alliance or Hill Country Conservancy for the Eastside. The Cap Metro report notes that the Eastside "is typically viewed as more environmentally receptive to urban development than is the western portion of the region." Yet who will champion protection of the many creeks that cross the rail line's path, especially those close to planned stations? Much of eastern Travis County is productive agricultural land, and what remains of the Blackland Prairie also merits conserving. Elgin and Manor residents favor this "green" line in part because they want to preserve the area's rural character. But good TOD intentions provide no guarantees that unattractive subdivisions of cheap starter homes won't replace the waving fields of sorghum. In advance of the rail project, jurisdictions and conservationists would need to actively protect sensitive lands and acquire prime land to increase parkland and open-space equity for Eastside residents.

Though the report doesn't mention it, one excellent tool available is 2006's "The Travis County Greenprint for Growth," a conservation planning initiative of the Trust for Public Land. (See "How Green Grows My County?" Dec. 14, 2007.) The "greenprint" identifies high-priority areas to preserve or to acquire as parks, before they are lost to development. Highlighted are conservation opportunities in far eastern Travis County, along the floodplains of the Colorado River and its tributary creeks. Envision Central Texas and the Trust for Public Land are currently creating greenprint maps for the full five-county region, including Bastrop County.

"We are aware of and support the ECT/TPL 'Greenprint' study, and we see this project as an important tool to help achieve the goal of protecting sensitive lands," said Hemingson. "Thorough environmental analysis will be performed before the project advances to a design phase."


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Finding Approvals
In evaluating the submittal from Cap Metro, the CAMPO Transit Working Group will make a maiden voyage with the new Decision Tree process. (What's learned on this project is expected to benefit evaluation of the more complex Austin streetcar circulator project, for which a Cap Metro submittal should be ready around the end of the year.) If the Green Line submittal finds favor with the 17 members of the Transit Working Group, the next challenge will be determining exactly how to pay for the system.

The financing discussion in the preliminary review only identifies more than 20 potential pots of money and a willingness among regional entities to discuss how they might partner. The report is silent on whether those pots hold the necessary $161 million to $192 million; Capital Metro's contribution would likely be the right-of-way and the rail line itself. (The Decision Tree questions on financing specifics likely will be addressed in a subsequent Transit Working Group submittal.) Together, the prospective funding partners might need a year to research and negotiate a viable financing deal that satisfies everyone's interests.

Once a financing plan is crafted, the CAMPO Policy Board would vote on whether to officially put the project in its 2030 (soon to be 2035) long-range regional transportation plan. At some point, voters would have to give Cap Metro the authority to operate the Green Line; jurisdictions desiring to use bonds or other taxing authority also would need voter approvals. Potentially, a May 2009 voter referendum on the narrow issue of Cap Metro authority could include both the Green Line and the streetcar circulator proposed for Central Austin – an essential system component to enable commuter rail to really work.

If CAMPO's new public vetting process works correctly, the Green Line and its cost/benefits will be judged not as a stand-alone project but rather as one component in a big-picture mobility solution. Whether the Transit Working Group can punch that ticket remains to be seen.
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  #904  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 1:41 AM
ATXboom ATXboom is offline
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Rail vs. Roads
Check the numbers
BY KATHERINE GREGOR


There's an ironic subtext to Capital Metro's Green Line report: Rail transit is being held to a higher standard of investment scrutiny than are roads, which are also wildly expensive. By comparison to the proposed Green Line, there's a $500 million price tag on design and construction for the Texas Department of Transportation's new 6.2-mile Manor Expressway, a toll road in the median of Highway 290 from U.S. 183 to Parmer Lane, scheduled to start construction next year. That's about $80.6 million per mile. At the upper estimate of $192 million, the Green Line would come in at $6.8 million per mile. No submittal of ridership projections was required for that toll road expenditure; annualized costs per passenger mile were not calculated. But it's a safer bet that tolls can pay back construction costs (if not ancillary and opportunity costs) in a way the transit fare-box never will.

The Central Texas Regional Mobility Authority project was green-lighted on the basis of current, growing congestion – traffic on U.S. 290 East between U.S. 183 and SH 130 has increased more than 78% since 1990. Daily traffic is estimated at 40,000 vehicles when the toll road opens in 2013, increasing to around 60,000 vehicles by 2030. (U.S. 290 also will be widened as part of the project; those lanes will remain untolled.) Without passenger rail in the corridor – projected to serve the same volume of travelers as two highway lanes in each direction – a toll road and/or expensive widening of 290 eventually would be needed all the way to Elgin
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  #905  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 1:42 AM
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The Sausage Link
How Elgin got the New Urbanist transit dream
BY KATHERINE GREGOR




"There's no reason why Elgin shouldn't be the national model for how to do it right!"

Over lunch at Southside Market & Barbeque – the hot-sausage pride of the "Sausage Capital of Texas" since 1882 – Elgin City Manager Jeff Coffee and a small group are talking about how to grow the town, from its present size of 10,000 residents to about 40,000 residents in 20 years. By "doing it right," Coffee means following the principles of New Urbanism to create a compact, close-knit community with a lively downtown and traditional neighborhoods. As he points out, those principles harken back to the "old urbanism" that spawned the railroad town.

"There would be no Elgin without rail," Coffee says simply. "It was passenger rail as well as freight in the old days. It was the intersection of two major rail lines that created Elgin."

Third-generation Southside Market proprietor Bryan Bracewell speaks to the strong desire of locals to maintain the town's character and sense of community. "I want to see Elgin grow responsibly and wisely," says Brace­well. "I don't think any of us with a stake in this community want to just wait and see what happens."

Located in the second "growth ring" around Austin, Elgin can see the suburban tsunami coming its way. "We can look at Round Rock, Hutto, and Kyle and see what we don't want to become," says Coffee – that is, a bunch of disconnected subdivisions and strip shopping malls, with no there there. Elginites are increasingly stepping forward to urge something different for their community. "Look at Hutto!" says Bracewell. "Do you want to turn into that?"


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Can't You Feel It?



The Green Line, based upon existing Capital Metro right-of-way, would pass through currently undeveloped pastureland and could stop near the historic Elgin passenger depot, now a city museum.
Photos Courtesy of The City of ElginCoffee and Dennis Sheehan, director of the Elgin Economic Development Corp., are conducting a driving tour through the historic downtown, built largely of Elgin brick, with its handsome old freight (1872) and passenger (1906) rail depots, and through tree-shaded neighborhoods where a family home with a porch can be found for a hundred grand. After the hustle of Austin, the town's slow-lane charm is seductive. In a couple of minutes, we're on the edge of town, passing beautiful rolling agricultural land (including several organic farms and ranches, such as Coyote Creek Farm) on the way to our destination – the 80-acre tract along the railroad tracks that the Elgin Economic Devel­op­ment Corp. bought in September 2007 as a site for transit-oriented development.

We get out and stroll through waving grasses. Insects buzz. Cattle graze. What most folks would see here is, well, a cow pasture. But the soft-spoken Elgin city manager is seeing the future. "Can't you almost feel it out here?" he enthuses. "It has so much potential! The vision is just now coming into focus!"

He indicates where a passenger station would go, along the half-mile of rail-line frontage. He points out where Highway 290 runs, not quite visible on the other side of a grassy knoll. He paints a word picture of a three- to four-story transit village surrounding the station, with compact homes above shops and cafes. In time, the surrounding 1,200 acres of pastureland all could be transformed into a compact, walkable, bike-friendly, neighborly community whose residents travel regionally by rail instead of by car. He talks about preserving the most beautiful parts of the topography as parks and open space. I step carefully to avoid the mud.


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Economic Meat, Juice, and Fat
Currently, no passenger rail service exists between Elgin and the capital city. But it's long been a "someday" project, along the existing Llano-Giddings line owned by Capital Metro. Anticipating a future desire for regional "connectivity," the transportation authority acquired the line and its right-of-way from the city of Austin in May 1998 for $764,262. At the first Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Org-anization Transit Working Group meeting in January, Elgin boldly laid on the table its recent $640,000 investment in a site for transit-oriented development. Forget what you thought you knew about Austin progressives and small-town rednecks: Elgin is now the tail wagging the regional rail system dog. In effect, its TOD gumption has challenged the whole region to take on rail transit solutions to congestion and mobility.




Elgin City Manager Jeff CoffeeCoffee, a Buda native, said he first was introduced to New Urbanist lingo when he attended a March 2007 SmartCode conference in Austin. There, he and two others from the city of Elgin heard Congress for the New Urbanism founder Andrés Duany extol the virtues of SmartCode: a building-code solution to community land-planning, which promotes good urban form and discourages sprawl. "A lot of lightbulbs went off," said Coffee. "Then one day I was walking down Main Street, and I looked around and said to myself, 'This is New Urbanism!'"

As a letter to CAMPO's Transit Working Group from Envision Elgin Chair Jeff Carter states: "The town's very foundation is the rail, and for active commuter rail service to return to Elgin will energize the town as much now as it did in 1872, when the existing freight depot was built. As then, the economic stimulus spawned by the rail will create a better life for those living in Austin."

Lest it appear that some mysterious urban-design fever is being transmitted via Elgin Hot Sausage, it's important to fully comprehend that "economic stimulus" piece. Mayor Gladys Markert's TWG letter states: "As determined in the July 2007 Elgin Station Initiative and Related Growth Trends, Phase I Study, TOD style development, as opposed to conventional style development, will allow the City of Elgin to realize a tax base increase over typical conventional development of $664,308,112, and net city revenue of $2,446,081, as opposed to negative net city revenue of $1,026,184 should traditional neighborhood development take place."

Those projections perhaps best explain how TOD won the hearty support of civic leaders: Markert, the nine-member City Council, Opportunity Bastrop County, the Elgin Economic Development Corp., Elgin Independent School District, the Chamber of Commerce, and Envision Elgin. Joining them in attaching letters of support to the Capital Metro rail line proposal are Bastrop County Judge Ronnie McDonald, Commissioner Lee Dildy, and state Sen. Glenn Hegar.

"At first, a lot of people had a great deal of concerns," Coffee acknowledges. "But as they understand the concept, and as it gets closer to reality – and fuel prices increase – a lot of minds are being changed."
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  #906  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 1:27 PM
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My response to Gregor's puff piece is entitled "They get to the Convention Center. Now what?"

More of the same ridiculous naivete from the Chronicle.
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  #907  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 1:36 PM
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^Very true but you have to respect the attempt made by the leaders of Elgin, if only our beloved Round Rock would have thought this way 20 years ago.
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  #908  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 5:10 PM
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If any of those suburbs really wanted rail to work for their people, they would have backed Capital Metro's LRT plan in 2000 - which could just as easily extend out their way, or at least serve as a much better urban backbone for commuter rail to be grafted on.

As it stands, they get to the Convention Center. Then what?
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  #909  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 5:12 PM
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The suburbs don't want it, even if the city wants it. How are you going to finance LRT through the city without the support of suburbs and their associated tax base? And how does the state's laws govern the formation of city-specific rail districts?
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  #910  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
If any of those suburbs really wanted rail to work for their people, they would have backed Capital Metro's LRT plan in 2000 - which could just as easily extend out their way, or at least serve as a much better urban backbone for commuter rail to be grafted on.

As it stands, they get to the Convention Center. Then what?
Gas wasn't as expensive as it is now 8 years ago.
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  #911  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 6:57 PM
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alexjon, I wasn't predicting that would happen; I was saying that's what suburbs would be doing if they REALLY wanted to help their workers.

Paul, if high gas prices will make people accept shuttlebuses, they'll make people accept express buses straight to work too - in fact, that already happened this year - those buses are SRO, leaving people behind in many cases. You have to have an extraordinarily low value for your time to take commuter rail + shuttlebus instead of one of those, though.
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  #912  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 9:02 PM
paulsjv paulsjv is offline
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
Paul, if high gas prices will make people accept shuttlebuses, they'll make people accept express buses straight to work too - in fact, that already happened this year - those buses are SRO, leaving people behind in many cases. You have to have an extraordinarily low value for your time to take commuter rail + shuttlebus instead of one of those, though.
I'm one of the people that take the express bus to and from work when I can. Gas prices did that and the fact that I no longer work across the street from where I live. I also agree with you that it's stupid to have the rail go to the convention center. I wasn't here in 2000 so I don't know what the suburbs thought of the rail then but it seems that a lot of them are interested in any kind of public transportation now and from what I've seen/read it seems like gas prices are a likely culprit of the driving force behind the burbs exploring the option of getting more public transportation out there.

IMO right now CapMetro's routes really REALLY suck. I know a lot of people who would use it if it was more convenient. Mostly people living south/southwest, Cedar Park, and Round Rock don't have too much of an option when wanting to take public transportation.
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  #913  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2008, 2:51 AM
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The suburbs don't want it, even if the city wants it. How are you going to finance LRT through the city without the support of suburbs and their associated tax base? And how does the state's laws govern the formation of city-specific rail districts?
You've hit on a very important point, but only slightly.

CapMetro is implementing regional rail around $3 to $6 million per mile. Suburbs can see the eventual rail line getting to them quickly.

Dallas's Dart and Houston's Metro are implementing light rail around $40 to $60 million per mile. Metro still hasn't made it to the suburbs, and has built to date just 12 miles of red line. Dart has built 40 miles of red and blue lines. While both are planning or building another 40 miles of light rail, at an expense over a $1 billion, CapMetro is building 32 miles of commuter rail for less than $100 million. In comparison, the same milage of rail lines for the tenth the price. Commuter rail is a bargain.

But I'll admit it is not the same as light rail. After the passenger counts rise, as more cities join Cap Metro to help pay for building it, and as the Austin area grows, there will be sufficient financial resources to convert the existing commuter rail into light rail.

The available rail corridors for CapMetro are limited. There's three north corridors, one east corridor, and one west corridor. The south corridor and one north corridor (actually the same UP freight rail line) are very busy with freight traffic. Using the much cheaper regional rail corridors to Austin's suburbs leaves more money available for CapMetro to build streetcars or light rail within Austin's city limits.

A streetcar line is under study, and there's always the potential for more streetcar lines and regional rail being built. When they're built, commuters will have someplace to go besides downtown Austin.

Personally, I would like to see the regional rail line to connect to Austin's airport vs the proposed streetcar line. I still think it'll be cheaper to implement regional rail to the airport vs a streetcar line.

Capital Metro's life story begins on January 19, 1985, when voters in Austin and the surrounding area approved the creation of the Capital Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Ten capital-area jurisdictions voted to participate in Capital Metro, including Austin, Cedar Park, Highland Lake Estates, Lago Vista, Leander, Pflugerville, Rollingwood, San Leanna, West Lake Hills, and the Anderson Mill area of Williamson County. By the end of that year, the suburban cities of Jonestown and Manor, along with Precinct 2 of Travis County voted to join the service area.

November 7, 2000 - CapMetro's 12 mile light rail plan was defeated by 0.7% , or by 2,000 votes. That light rail line did not reach the suburbs.
Why blame the voters in the suburbs for voting against an insufficient plan that didn't serve them?

November 2, 2004 - Today, citizens in the Capital Metro service area voted in favor of allowing the agency to operate urban commuter rail service extending from Leander through northwest and east Austin and on to downtown. As of late Tuesday evening, the unofficial vote totals indicated that 62% citizens voted for the referendum while 38% voted against.

Important lesson learned by CapMetro in 2000:
Expensive rail projects must reach the suburbs quickly and cheaply.

p.s. CapMetro's penny sales tax generates more than $30 million/year for rail projects. Expect more rail projects to be proposed soon.
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  #914  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2008, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by paulsjv View Post

IMO right now CapMetro's routes really REALLY suck. I know a lot of people who would use it if it was more convenient. Mostly people living south/southwest, Cedar Park, and Round Rock don't have too much of an option when wanting to take public transportation.
Well, in fairness, much of the problem is that Austin's layout makes a mass-transportation system difficult to implement compared to almost any other city you can think of.

I've always put forth the idea (going back to 2000) that commuter rail and light rail should be argued for based trying to shift growth patterns and not so much any promise of relief to current car commuters. As a rapidly growing metro area, mass-transport planning still has the ability to significant influence that growth. Unlike Detroit and Buffalo which have had rail systems built despite declining populations, Austin will continue to be one of the fastest growing metro areas for at least another couple of decades.

The more rail (commuter, streetcar, light) and RapidBus (not withstanding M1EK's objections) that's built and when combined with effective zoning policies, the more that growth will be better balanced between suburban sprawl and urban (or mini-urban TODs) density.
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  #915  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2008, 11:55 PM
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there will be sufficient financial resources to convert the existing commuter rail into light rail.
I don't know how many more times I can say this, Lyndon (or minion):

You can't "convert" the existing commuter rail into light rail. You can run electric trains on it every minute - but it will still not go where it needs to go.

As for the election analysis, spare me your uninformed (or if you're Lyndon et al, just misleading) tripe. It passed in the city and barely lost overall - had the agency one ounce of courage, a scaled back Houston-like line could have been floated in 2004 and would have easily passed, now that the suburbanites weren't energized to come out and vote for W.

Oh, and don't forget: the 2000 plan suffered from being half-baked because Krusee forced it to the polls early.

Folks, don't buy revisionist history from people who won't identify themselves.
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  #916  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2008, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
I've always put forth the idea (going back to 2000) that commuter rail and light rail should be argued for based trying to shift growth patterns and not so much any promise of relief to current car commuters. As a rapidly growing metro area, mass-transport planning still has the ability to significant influence that growth.
This has never actually worked in the era of the automobile - at least, not the way it would have to to work here (bringing in CBD-like density on the ghastly Airport Blvd. corridor).

As Christof put it in Houston, density begets density - you can get density to fill in along a rail line that runs between dense areas, but you will not get it to show up when you run rail FROM nowhere TO nowhere - as South Florida learned.
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Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 1:44 AM
NormalgeNyus NormalgeNyus is offline
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
I don't know how many more times I can say this, Lyndon (or minion):

You can't "convert" the existing commuter rail into light rail. You can run electric trains on it every minute - but it will still not go where it needs to go.

As for the election analysis, spare me your uninformed (or if you're Lyndon et al, just misleading) tripe. It passed in the city and barely lost overall - had the agency one ounce of courage, a scaled back Houston-like line could have been floated in 2004 and would have easily passed, now that the suburbanites weren't energized to come out and vote for W.

Oh, and don't forget: the 2000 plan suffered from being half-baked because Krusee forced it to the polls early.

Folks, don't buy revisionist history from people who won't identify themselves.
Miek or who ever you are. attacking a person is no way to try and get your opinion across. if you gotta try to make someone look bad to try and make yourself look better it doesn't work and it doesn't help your opinion one bit. if you wanna more people on your side you gotta provide facts not attack someones character. Its a sad world when you have to do that instead of depating the issue. just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong and you right.
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Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 1:57 AM
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"It won in the city, but barely lost in the suburbs" still means it lost.
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Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 2:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
Well, in fairness, much of the problem is that Austin's layout makes a mass-transportation system difficult to implement compared to almost any other city you can think of.

I've always put forth the idea (going back to 2000) that commuter rail and light rail should be argued for based trying to shift growth patterns and not so much any promise of relief to current car commuters. As a rapidly growing metro area, mass-transport planning still has the ability to significant influence that growth. Unlike Detroit and Buffalo which have had rail systems built despite declining populations, Austin will continue to be one of the fastest growing metro areas for at least another couple of decades.

The more rail (commuter, streetcar, light) and RapidBus (not withstanding M1EK's objections) that's built and when combined with effective zoning policies, the more that growth will be better balanced between suburban sprawl and urban (or mini-urban TODs) density.
I agree. Any transit that causes TODs is better than suburban sprawl which Austin has now.

And you got to look at it from an affordability issue too.

Look at Dallas's Dart sales tax figures vs Austin's CapMetro numbers.

CapMetro's sales tax revenues ~$150 million per year.
Dart's sales tax revenues ~400 million per year.

Dart has built just 40 miles of double track light rail and 15 miles of commuter rail (Dart's share of the TRE) the past 12 years with almost three times as much sales tax revenues. In another 5 years, Dart will have 90 miles of light rail when the existing capital funds ($2.9 Billion in long term bonds) are mostly spent.

CapMetro is going to have to build more cheaper rail projects to fund 60 to 90 miles of rail projects. That doesn't mean they can't afford to build some light rail or streetcar projects, but the ratio of commuter rail to light rail is going to have to be higher than Dart's 1 commuter rail to 6 light rail ratio.

CapMetro will not have the financial resources to match Dart for decades. I don't think Austin can wait that long to build rail projects if they want to slow down suburban sprawl.

Whereas I understand much of the traffic within Austin is north-south along Guadalupe and Lamar, CapMetro red line being built today parallels that route loosely. The CapMetro streetcar plan, future streetcar plans, and rapid bus plans will move passengers along Guadalupe and Lamar.
CapMetro green line plan, if built, will help encourage urban growth to Austin's east side before suburban sprawl is built. ASA's commuter rail to San Antonio and Georgetown, if built, will also loosely parallel Guadalupe and Lamar too.

City transit agencies, like children, must crawl before they can walk, and must build systems line by line, one step at a time.
We can argue where the first line should be built till the cows come home, but let's not overlook and miss the big picture.

Last edited by electricron; Sep 14, 2008 at 3:21 AM.
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  #920  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2008, 3:02 AM
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M1EK M1EK is offline
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Originally Posted by NormalgeNyus View Post
Miek or who ever you are.
M1EK is my nickname - my real name is Mike Dahmus; I served 5 years on the city's UTC - all of which I've said here before. On the other hand, neither electricon nor "SecretAgentMan" have identified themselves, and the latter has certainly felt free to attack me by name; and both are misinforming you.

Electricron is repeating the same nonsense fed people by Dave Dobbs and Lyndon Henry - that stringing up electric wire somehow makes Airport Boulevard the CBD. We're still stuck with rail from nowhere to nowhere - which even when cheap isn't worth the cost.
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