NEW YORK | 15 Penn Plaza (Hotel Penn) | 1,034 FT / 315 M | 53 FLOORS

[Stained]

I see no reason to disagree with those who have deemed this project as "On Hold." I look forward to any new designs which emerge (The project's location almost demands it to be extraordinary, although that is not a requirement. I do expect modifications though) and to any new information which we are presented with. I would never call a project in NY "dead" until something else has been built in its location. Even then it might reappear in a different place at a different time. NY is truly an amazing city unlike any other.

[599GTO]

Well, this building might as well be cancelled to me.

Let's see --- they're going to renovate this dump. Do you know how many years renovation would take? I can't see them changing their minds mid-renovation and deciding to raze this building for a tower. I also can't see them finally finishing renovation and deciding to destroy it the next day and starting 15 Penn Plaza construction.

So if this building is being renovated, 15 Penn Plaza probably wouldn't even begin construction in over a decade. Sorry, I may be short sighted but something that will probably not even start construction until 10+ years or so is a dead project to me.

NEXT!

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by 599GTO

Well, this building might as well be cancelled to me.

Let's see --- they're going to renovate this dump. Do you know how many years renovation would take? I can't see them changing their minds mid-renovation and deciding to raze this building for a tower. I also can't see them finally finishing renovation and deciding to destroy it the next day and starting 15 Penn Plaza construction.

So if this building is being renovated, 15 Penn Plaza probably wouldn't even begin construction in over a decade. Sorry, I may be short sighted but something that will probably not even start construction until 10+ years or so is a dead project to me.

NEXT!

Exactly what I'm saying. If the building that this tower was going to replace is being renovated, this building is either canceled or will not be built for another few decades at least.

Sadly, I think it's time to forget about this one.

[RobertWalpole]

It's "on hold." Someone who's not from NY can't understand the value of 2.5sf "as of right" development rights.

[yankeesfan1000]

Those air rights are non transferable correct?

[scalziand]

I believe so. They would be transferable if the hotel was landmarked though, correct?

[meh_cd]

Originally Posted by RobertWalpole

It's "on hold." Someone who's not from NY can't understand the value of 2.5sf "as of right" development rights.

I said it was on hold immediately after the news and I was told that I was incorrect. Did something change? Or is it just a de facto on hold as I assumed?

[gramsjdg]

On hold is fine with me- this building is way too bulky for its height.

[Duck From NY]

Originally Posted by gramsjdg

On hold is fine with me- this building is way too bulky for its height.

I agree. I don't mind adding tall buildings on 34th street, flanking the Empire State Building. ESB has plenty of breathing room. However, I feel that the new buildings to the West of it shouldn't be that bulky if they're going to be taller.

By the way, does anyone know if there's any prospect for building more skyscrapers to the East of the ESB? I'd like to see Midtown retain some lateral balance.

[Guiltyspark]

Originally Posted by Duck From NY

I agree. I don't mind adding tall buildings on 34th street, flanking the Empire State Building. ESB has plenty of breathing room. However, I feel that the new buildings to the West of it shouldn't be that bulky if they're going to be taller.

By the way, does anyone know if there's any prospect for building more skyscrapers to the East of the ESB? I'd like to see Midtown retain some lateral balance.

Midtown skyscrapers are already primarily in the east and central parts of Manhattan. The Manhattan West developments are what would have achieved some lateral balance, but it seems like more and more of them are being put on hold. Damn economy. http://www.skyscraper.org/timeformat...ansparent.html

[Duck From NY]

Originally Posted by Guiltyspark

Midtown skyscrapers are already primarily in the east and central parts of Manhattan. The Manhattan West developments are what would have achieved some lateral balance, but it seems like more and more of them are being put on hold. Damn economy. http://www.skyscraper.org/timeformat...ansparent.html

I actually think that site supports my argument. The bulk of Midtown runs from 8th Ave to the East River, placing the Empire State Building near the center of the bulk. Obviously that's been somewhat offset by the more-recent projects along 42nd st. It would be nice to see tall buildings to the East of ESB on 32nd/33rd if they're going to build them to the West, and was wondering if some of the more-knowledgable people here could inform me about the possibility.

[Zapatan]

huh? what else is on hold besides this one?

[yankeesfan1000]

None. Manhattan Wests deck is starting in Jan, and Hudson Yards South is starting in the spring.

[Zerton]

Such a disappointment. It's a shame to see such a beautiful building go to waste. And it looked like it was ready to build.

[RobertWalpole]

Originally Posted by Zerton

Such a disappointment. It's a shame to see such a beautiful building go to waste. And it looked like it was ready to build.

It will be built. There's always demand in the financial capital of the world.

[Dac150]

Originally Posted by Zerton

Such a disappointment. It's a shame to see such a beautiful building go to waste. And it looked like it was ready to build.

Nowhere in the articles previously posted does it say that this project will face the fate you just described. READ what was actually written and you'll understand that this project is being temporarily shelved until market conditions improve.

Nothing has been cancelled and nothing is going to waste. It's probable that there may be a design change, however the air rights are still intact and future demand will warrant the construction of a sizable building that will more than likely exceed 1000ft. Personally I doubt Vornado will not use one of the two design possibilities for the final product depending on what type of tenant they sign.

It is however very reasonable to expect that any sort of movement on this project will not occur for years to come if Vornado definitely proceeds with the hotel renovations. Disappointing indeed, however by no means suggests the disappearance of this project.

[RobertWalpole]

Originally Posted by Dac150

Nowhere in the articles previously posted does it say that this project will face the fate you just described. READ what was actually written and you'll understand that this project is being temporarily shelved until market conditions improve.

Nothing has been cancelled and nothing is going to waste. It's probable that there may be a design change, however the air rights are still intact and future demand will warrant the construction of a sizable building that will more than likely exceed 1000ft. Personally I doubt Vornado will not use one of the two design possibilities for the final product depending on what type of tenant they sign.

It is however very reasonable to expect that any sort of movement on this project will not occur for years to come if Vornado definitely proceeds with the hotel renovations. Disappointing indeed, however by no means suggests the disappearance of this project.

Minor renovations will not delay this project. As I've stated, this project and all other large office projects (i.e., over 1m sf space), but for 175 Greenwich, will not move until the Yards is rented. No one can compete with Related on price. However, assuming that Related's 5.5m sf are rented in 3 years and the US economy is strong, this will begin rising around that time, as well 200 Greenwich.

[mistermetAJ]

Originally Posted by njcco

Sorry, I know the Hotel Pennsylvania is a McKim, Mead & White building, but even they had some bad ones, and this was a really bad one. I have waited for years for this flea-trap to be demolished, and I fear it will be there for many more years. It is an obsolete and disgusting building - the renovation will simply be putting lipstick on a rotting carcass of a pig.

As to the Pelli discussion above, Pelli does seem to have run out of new ideas. That said, his buildings are awfully handsome. I work near the GS building in Jersey City and it has really grown on me over the years.

I don't know of many, if any, BAD McKim, Meade, and White Buildings. I guess White's remake of the UVa Rotunda was considered "Bad" by Jeffersonian standards and was redone later, but that's it. Certainly their work in NYC was nothing short of spectacular, this hotel included. Look up the old pictures of the lobby. What you see now is a "modern" updated look.

The hotel should be restored to its original grandeur and landmarked.

I am all for supertalls in NYC. I am for Torre Verre, the giant bland box on Park Ave (I just hate the design), and I don't care about the views or vistas from the West to see the Empire State building. I hate NIMBYism, but no supertall in this day and age is worth losing a McKim Meade and White. This building could easily be built somewhere else in the immediate area. Look at the mess of subway and retail in a 2 story low rise right on the corner of 34th and 7th right next door. I would hate to make the same mistake again after what happened to the original Penn Station and lose another irreplaceable piece of historic architecture.

[jd3189]

Isn't there another area near Hotel Penn to build this building or a similar design? I have a feeling that we won't be seeing this here.

[yankeesfan1000]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Isn't there another area near Hotel Penn to build this building or a similar design? I have a feeling that we won't be seeing this here.

Yes there are other sites but the air rights are non-transferable. As for tenants and subsequent construction, well just have to wait and see.