The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[SaskOttaLoo]

Originally Posted by Klazu

As of today Evergreen Extension (formerly Evergreen Line) is now active and running. Vancouver's Skytrain network expands another bit.

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Great news! How important is this extension for Vancouver, in terms of improving connectivity, expected PPD ridership, etc.? What is Vancouver's next expected expansion?

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo

Great news! How important is this extension for Vancouver, in terms of improving connectivity, expected PPD ridership, etc.? What is Vancouver's next expected expansion?

How I would describe Evergreen Line is that it mostly serves few quickly growing bedroom communities that have previously relied heavily on cars. So it is not a major leap for most of the region, but a nice extension (not its own line), bringing Skytrain to some 200 000 people.

The next line / extension is currently undecided, but it's either going to be extending Millennium Line under towards UBC (connecting it with Canada Line and hence creating a relief line for Downtown) or extending Expo Line from Surrey to Langley. Extension towards UBC (even in two phases, as they are currently planning it) would make much more sense traffic numbers wise, but this is a highly political decision and other communities feel like Vancouver is "always" getting a priority on projects although that's where most traffic is at.

So we don't know, but hopefully at least SOMETHING will get underway very soon.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In 8 years, Toronto will top both by a massive margin if the criteria is frequent electric rail transit, as it will have its massive LRT and RER networks.

I'm not a fan of these sorts of comparisons for this reason.. it's so hard to come up with a good benchmark and so easy to use a benchmark that's biased in favour of a specific city.

I believe 20 km of this is electrified underground rail transit that is already under construction. So its not like Toronto isn't doing anything. And an electrified Go Rail/and UPX Line will also ease some of the subway traffic coming from the western part of the city like Dundas West / Weston Station, possibly the east too with stops at Main Street and Kennedy Station.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

So its not like Toronto isn't doing anything. And an electrified Go Rail/and UPX Line will also ease some of the subway traffic coming from the western part of the city like Dundas West / Weston Station, possibly the east too with stops at Main Street and Kennedy Station.

Toronto did nothing for almost 20 years (thanks partly to high levels of government). In fact, Canada's two largest cities have not kept up, and this is why Vancouver has surpassed both.

Vancouver and Calgary are the only two cities which have been constantly building extensions to their rapid transit networks.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

I believe 20 km of this is electrified underground rail transit that is already under construction. So its not like Toronto isn't doing anything. And an electrified Go Rail/and UPX Line will also ease some of the subway traffic coming from the western part of the city like Dundas West / Weston Station, possibly the east too with stops at Main Street and Kennedy Station.

The current GO expansion will result in about 190 km of frequent, electrified RER. That to me is more important than all the other transit projects that are in the works except the DRL. Let's hope that a new government after the next election doesn't screw it up.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Toronto did nothing for almost 20 years (thanks partly to high levels of government). In fact, Canada's two largest cities have not kept up, and this is why Vancouver has surpassed both.

Vancouver and Calgary are the only two cities which have been constantly building extensions to their rapid transit networks.

The TTC may not have been expanding, but GO certainly has been expanding.

The Bradford line was extended twice into Barrie, and now goes by Barrie line.

The Georgetown line has been extended to Kitchener and now goes by Kitchener line.

The Barrie line added 26km. The Kitchener line added about 50km. That is more than the entire Skytrain system.

AMT has made some extensions too. The Mascouche line added 52 km. The Mont-Saint-Hilaire line added 35 km.

So, when will they ever extend the WCE?

The area served by GO is now expanding RT in the area. Mississauga is building a transitway. York is building a busway. Toronto is building the Subway extension and and an LRT line. Kitchener is building an LRT line.

And then there are the planned extensions and new subway and LRT lines for Toronto, Vaughan, Cambridge, Mississauga, and Hamilton.

Even Montreal has plans to extend their RT with the RER.

Vancouver has a few projects: Broadway extension, and an LRT into Surrey and Langley, which might end up being a Skytrain route.

And then there are GO train expansions beyond Oshawa on that line, and beyond Stouffville on that line.

In short, Vancouver, Enjoy the fact your RT is longer while it lasts. In less than a decade, It will dwarf back to 3rd place, and still have the same commuter line for over 20 years.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The TTC may not have been expanding, but GO certainly has been expanding.

The Bradford line was extended twice into Barrie, and now goes by Barrie line.

The Georgetown line has been extended to Kitchener and now goes by Kitchener line.

The Barrie line added 26km. The Kitchener line added about 50km. That is more than the entire Skytrain system.

Those expansions weren't even in the GTA. If you want to compare what's happening in Toronto or metro Toronto compared to Vancouver or metro Vancouver, a good start would be to compare things happening within those places.

Vancouver proper would compare to Toronto proper; Richmond, Surrey, Coquitlam would compare to Mississauga, Brampton, Markham, while Barrie and Kitchener would compare to Abbotsford, Chilliwack, etc.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Those expansions weren't even in the GTA. If you want to compare what's happening in Toronto or metro Toronto compared to Vancouver or metro Vancouver, a good start would be to compare things happening within those places.

Vancouver proper would compare to Toronto proper; Richmond, Surrey, Coquitlam would compare to Mississauga, Brampton, Markham, while Barrie and Kitchener would compare to Abbotsford, Chilliwack, etc.

Mission is not part of the GVA.

[Innsertnamehere]

Well an extension of the Richmond Hill line opens tomorrow, so..

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Well an extension of the Richmond Hill line opens tomorrow, so..

Thats right!

Sorry, I forgot about that extension.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Those expansions weren't even in the GTA. If you want to compare what's happening in Toronto or metro Toronto compared to Vancouver or metro Vancouver, a good start would be to compare things happening within those places.

Vancouver proper would compare to Toronto proper; Richmond, Surrey, Coquitlam would compare to Mississauga, Brampton, Markham, while Barrie and Kitchener would compare to Abbotsford, Chilliwack, etc.

I would normally compare local transit the service area provided by transit authority. So compare the service provided by TTC with STM and TransLink (minus WCE).. And compare the service by regional authority - GO with AMT with WCE...

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, when will they ever extend the WCE?

Nope, they are reducing it.

Bus service for WCE will be integrated back to conventional transit starting in 2 weeks (ie. local stops, regular bus fare)

[eemy]

Originally Posted by nname

I would normally compare local transit the service area provided by transit authority. So compare the service provided by TTC with STM and TransLink (minus WCE).. And compare the service by regional authority - GO with AMT with WCE...

Isn't TransLink a regional transit authority, though?

[nname]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Isn't TransLink a regional transit authority, though?

I think its somewhat more similar to STM (serving the entire island of Montreal) than to GO (serving all the way to satellite cities that are less dependent on Toronto)

[Mister F]

GO Transit can't really be considered rapid transit in the same sense as a subway or Skytrain type system. The Lakeshore line and UP Express would be the closest, with trains every 20-30 minutes. IMO, when the RER upgrades are complete it will be much more comparable.

When people talk about Toronto's rapid transit system going back to #1, the following projects are what is underway:

RER upgrades are in varying stages of construction.
-Lakeshore line from Union east to Oshawa and west to Aldershot.
-Barrie line from Union to Aurora
-Kitchener line from Union to Bramalea
-Stouffville line from Union to Unionville

Line 1 extension to Vaughan is almost complete.
Eglinton line (line 5?) is under construction.
Finch LRT I believe is under construction.
Downtown relief line is in the design stage, don't know when construction will start.
No idea of the status of the Sheppard LRT or Scarborough subway.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The TTC may not have been expanding, but GO certainly has been expanding.

The Bradford line was extended twice into Barrie, and now goes by Barrie line.

The Georgetown line has been extended to Kitchener and now goes by Kitchener line.

The Barrie line added 26km. The Kitchener line added about 50km. That is more than the entire Skytrain system.

AMT has made some extensions too. The Mascouche line added 52 km. The Mont-Saint-Hilaire line added 35 km.

So, when will they ever extend the WCE?

The area served by GO is now expanding RT in the area. Mississauga is building a transitway. York is building a busway. Toronto is building the Subway extension and and an LRT line. Kitchener is building an LRT line.

And then there are the planned extensions and new subway and LRT lines for Toronto, Vaughan, Cambridge, Mississauga, and Hamilton.

Even Montreal has plans to extend their RT with the RER.

Vancouver has a few projects: Broadway extension, and an LRT into Surrey and Langley, which might end up being a Skytrain route.

And then there are GO train expansions beyond Oshawa on that line, and beyond Stouffville on that line.

In short, Vancouver, Enjoy the fact your RT is longer while it lasts. In less than a decade, It will dwarf back to 3rd place, and still have the same commuter line for over 20 years.

There is no need to be so upset. All our cities build rapid transit as needed and our needs are all different. We are all probably behind in our transit infrastructure, and we experience different challenges in the form of geography/existing infrastructure (like how Toronto has been blessed with an extensive rail network that's allowed it to develop the GO system so well) and politics (like how the City of Toronto has had such a hard time getting its shit together). Our cities are all different sizes too, and their systems will reflect that.

So it is unusual that Vancouver's rapid transit system is longer than Toronto's, and you're right in saying that it probably won't last for too long; logic says it shouldn't. So just as we should enjoy this while it lasts, you don't need to be so bitter about it for too long either.

[ssiguy]

^^ Good post and yes cities have different needs.

Montreal is an island with commutes from all directions, Toronto hugs a lakeshore, and Vancouver urban are is shapped like a cone with stretch across an inlet to northern cities..

The cities also have different employment regions. Vancouver has a far more segregated employment sector and relatively few students in the downtown cores Montreal & Toronto. The later 2 also have more head offices downtown with standard business hours unlike Vancouver.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Mission is not part of the GVA.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. That may be true, but can you expand a bit upon the point you were making?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Mister F

GO Transit can't really be considered rapid transit in the same sense as a subway or Skytrain type system. The Lakeshore line and UP Express would be the closest, with trains every 20-30 minutes. IMO, when the RER upgrades are complete it will be much more comparable.

When people talk about Toronto's rapid transit system going back to #1, the following projects are what is underway:

RER upgrades are in varying stages of construction.
-Lakeshore line from Union east to Oshawa and west to Aldershot.
-Barrie line from Union to Aurora
-Kitchener line from Union to Bramalea
-Stouffville line from Union to Unionville

Line 1 extension to Vaughan is almost complete.
Eglinton line (line 5?) is under construction.
Finch LRT I believe is under construction.
Downtown relief line is in the design stage, don't know when construction will start.
No idea of the status of the Sheppard LRT or Scarborough subway.

Sheppard LRT is shelved for the time being. Line 5 (Eglinton) now has extensions planned to UTSC in the east and Pearson Airport in the west.

When all of it is added up, I think Toronto's "rapid transit" system could very well be something in the neighbourhood of 300km by 2025.

[Innsertnamehere]

Finch isn't under construction yet, it starts next year. Completion 2021, just like Eglinton.

[GreaterMontréal]

Montréal will have a new regional transit agency, the RTM (Réseau Transport Métropolitain).