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  #1  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
<NCC has joined the chat>
It's awesome that the NCC supports the loop. But that must mean that their preference is the "Wellington without Traffic" option? That's the only way to get this to work. How to convince Ottawa City Council?
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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
It's awesome that the NCC supports the loop. But that must mean that their preference is the "Wellington without Traffic" option? That's the only way to get this to work. How to convince Ottawa City Council?
I don't think the City of Ottawa has much say in this going forward. The Feds/NCC could easily take full control of Confederation Boulevard and do what they please.

Although I'm generally supportive of the idea, I'm not sure how I feel of having two streets in a row closed to motor vehicles (Sparks and Wellington).
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  #3  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I don't think the City of Ottawa has much say in this going forward. The Feds/NCC could easily take full control of Confederation Boulevard and do what they please.

Although I'm generally supportive of the idea, I'm not sure how I feel of having two streets in a row closed to motor vehicles (Sparks and Wellington).
Are you kidding? A proper pedestrian area near the Hill is awesome!
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  #4  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Are you kidding? A proper pedestrian area near the Hill is awesome!
I'm not totally opposed to a pedestrian area in front of Parliament, but I'm not sold on having two pedestrian streets over two blocks.
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  #5  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 7:47 PM
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Are you kidding? A proper pedestrian area near the Hill is awesome!
I second this. It would mean Sparks would no longer be a pedestrian island. Proper tie-in to the Hill and river MUPs too? Yes, please.
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  #6  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 5:22 PM
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Truly shocked that the NCC supports the loop. I am so happy to be wrong on this one. I thought they'd never agree to getting rid of car traffic on Wellington.
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  #7  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 7:46 PM
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I agree that in the absence of any reason to do it on Wellington, it would be better to advocate for pedestrian spaces elsewhere. But I also don't see what would be the downside of it happening now that there is an opportunity.

In any case, what I hear is that, loop or not, the Feds are planning to close Wellington to vehicular traffic, making the question moot.
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2020, 4:25 PM
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Making Wellington a tram mall offers so much opportunity to put up pop up vendors and make it lively. It's the cars that are wasting space on Wellington.
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  #9  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2020, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Making Wellington a tram mall offers so much opportunity to put up pop up vendors and make it lively. It's the cars that are wasting space on Wellington.
Vendors?!??!

There are not enough smelling salts in Ontario and Quebec combined for the NCC if you were to suggest c- c- co- com- comm- commercial activity anywhere within 500 metres of sacred "Confederation Boulevard".
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 10:01 PM
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Council OKs controversial Barrhaven LRT route and Gatineau's tram vision for Ottawa

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Nov 25, 2020 • Last Updated 3 minutes ago • 3 minute read


<snip>

On a separate matter, council was a good neighbour and voted in support of the City of Gatineau’s plan to run electrified rail into Ottawa.

Both potential routes — a surface tram on Wellington Street and a tram tunnel under Sparks Street — received council’s endorsement, with the tunnel identified as the “optimal corridor.”

Gatineau and the Société de transport de l’Outaouais is planning a new transit system between Aylmer and downtown Ottawa using the Portage Bridge as the interprovincial connection point.

The Wellington Street option would cost $3.032 billion, while the Sparks Street tunnel option would be between $3.532 billion and $3.899 billion.

Gatineau needs financial help from the Quebec government and the federal government to build the transit system. No City of Ottawa money would be used.

Council backed a call for a federally funded study on a transit “loop” that could connect the downtowns of Ottawa and Hull. The study could also examine the idea of creating a pedestrian mall on Wellington Street.

Council also called on any federal money to be prioritized for Stage 3 LRT projects, such as Barrhaven LRT.

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https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ion-for-ottawa
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2020, 6:28 PM
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I just thought of something. A lot of people are very against cars, stating the environmental impact. I'm all for reducing the amount of cars on the road but we can't fully remove them. It is easy to think of small delivery vehicles, plumbers, electricians, emergency vehicles, people needing to go to 5 different stops across the city within an hour, etc... One thing is certain, individual "cars" will always exist.

The thing that nobody mentions is the gradual transition to electric vehicles. The autonomy and price might not make it perfect for everyone right now, but who knows how much the technology will evolve in the next 50-100years. If the individual car was carbon neutral, I don't think we could use the environmental impact as a reason to remove cars on the road.

In my opinion we shouldn't remove one of the important east/west cross city roads. Wellington is essentially the historic road that brought you all the way to Montreal. If we absolutely needed to convert one street, I'd convert Queen for surface tram to leave Wellington, Albert, Slater and Laurier intact.

I may ask, where is the destination for most of the downtown workers, is it mostly along Wellington or closer to Queen?
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2020, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RuralCitizen View Post
In my opinion we shouldn't remove one of the important east/west cross city roads. Wellington is essentially the historic road that brought you all the way to Montreal. If we absolutely needed to convert one street, I'd convert Queen for surface tram to leave Wellington, Albert, Slater and Laurier intact.

I may ask, where is the destination for most of the downtown workers, is it mostly along Wellington or closer to Queen?
I don't think there's much of a point building a tram directly above an LRT in the same travel direction. Would capture more people in a wider area by putting a tram on literally any other street.
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  #13  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2020, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I don't think there's much of a point building a tram directly above an LRT in the same travel direction. Would capture more people in a wider area by putting a tram on literally any other street.
Building the tram above the LRT would allow for better and faster transfer between the 2 lines. The tram coming from Gatineau isn't about capturing a wider area in Ottawa, it's about bringing people where they need to go. (The office towers in the cores, and other areas in the city served by the LRT.
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2020, 8:32 PM
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You can look at Paris and New York subway maps. Both have lines following the same directions, but split at their extremities. I think it is quite common.
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  #15  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2020, 10:02 PM
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As much as I’d like to help out the tourists, I am having difficulty trying to reason why having a loop would benefit the STO.

As far as I know, the point of the Aylmer Tram is to get people back and forth between Aylmer and downtown Ottawa. I’m struggling to see how a loop would be a benefit in accomplishing that goal. Basically, the STO is trying to determine the best way to replace many of the buses that come from Aylmer and go to Ottawa. The options were to create another Rapibus line or a tram line.

My understanding is that most of the current STO buses from the other regions of Gatineau will still be continuing to downtown Ottawa, including the Rapibus routes that use the Portage Bridge. Looking at the STO routes in Ottawa, only the Orange Corridor buses are being replaced.



It seems that the preferred option for the STO is a tram line that crosses the Portage Bridge and then ends in downtown Ottawa. That tram will be sharing the Portage crossing with a lot of STO buses. OC Transpo is currently using the Chaudière Bridge to cross the river – but if that route becomes unavailable due to the condition of those bridges, OC Transpo might need to switch to the Portage Bridge also.

When Ottawa was designing the North-South LRT, the initial plan was to have both buses and LRT on the same street. That was soon deemed unworkable – which led to our west-east LRT being put underground. I am not seeing the surface option for a tram line running on the surface in front of the Parliament Buildings being any more practical. All of the arguments against Ottawa running its LRT on the surface would still apply. There will be vehicle crowding on the bridge/roads. There will be security issues. There will be reliability issues with people disrupting the tram’s path. And, if ONLY STO vehicles were allowed to run in front of the Parliament Buildings, I think that Ottawa, the City, (and many Anglos across the country) would be up in arms about the favouritism. I really can’t see that option as being acceptable, except to a few ‘romantics’ who think it might bring a ‘European flair’ to Ottawa.

According to the information that STO released, the option of running a tunnel from Laurier and Portage, under the river, and under Bank Street to Queen was looked at and dismissed due to the complexity of construction. Although it would be more difficult to construct, that gentle curve would result in a 1.2 km tunnel, terminating at a station just under the Confederation line. (If a shallow Bank Street Subway terminated above the Confederation Line, then there could be a wonderful transfer point to trains leaving in all four directions.) For reference, the STO’s plan for the tunnel under Sparks Street is also 1.2 km in length.

STO proposed underground


In order to form a loop, using the Alexandra Bridge’s replacement, there would need to be a complicated, underground, path from where the STO tunnel under Sparks ended to the Alexandra Bridge. This would be non-trivial work and the cost would be very high. And for what benefit to the people traveling to and from Aylmer?

In my opinion, the best approach would be for the STO to have a tram-stop (on the surface, if they wish) at Les Terrasses de la Chaudière and one under the Portage Bridge ramp, just south of the intersection with Laurier. The Portage station would tie in with its huge underground parking lot. Then the tram would run under the river, along a high-speed (max. tram speed) curve to a terminal stop under Bank Street at Queen. There could be passages to both Lyon and Parliament/Parlement Stations. Alternatively, the curve could meet up with O’Connor Street – although that would mean a fairly sharp bent to avoid the west Block.

‘The Loop’ should be a completely separate project. It would be a slow-speed vehicle that runs on a single set of tracks, in one direction, along the surface of Canada’s first pedestrian mall, Sparks Street. The loop would have stops in a number of places that tourists might be interested in, including, but not limited to; the Bank of Canada’s Money Museum and the Supreme Court of Canada; the (redesigned) Garden of the Provinces and the memorial to Communism; across Pooley’s Bridge with the Pumphouse’s Whitewater Course; the Ottawa Public Library’s new Central Branch with its Library and Archives Canada and genealogy holdings; through Pindigen Park in LeBreton Flats; past the National Holocaust Monument and the Canadian War Museum; across the (redesigned) Chaudière Bridges with access to the Kabeshinan Minitig Pavilion and views of (what is left of) the Chaudière Falls; along Rue Laurier to the Canadian Museum of History and Jacques Cartier Park; across a (redesigned) Alexandra Bridge to Nepean Point and the National Gallery of Canada; along Mackenzie to Colonel’s Major’s Hill Park, the Embassy of the United States of America, and the Stairs to the By Ward Market; the Fairmont Chateau Laurier, the Rideau Centre, and the Government Conference Centre; the National Arts Centre; the National War Memorial; and back to Sparks Street. Ideally, this would be a free service that runs every 30 minutes, or so, with two vehicles.

We should not be trying to shoe-horn more functions into the STO’s plans. The Aylmer Tram Line can not be all things to all people. It must be allowed to be the best service it can be to encourage the people of Aylmer to use transit when going to Ottawa.
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  #16  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2020, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
As much as I’d like to help out the tourists, I am having difficulty trying to reason why having a loop would benefit the STO.
The bus/tram issue is a real one. From some of the wording and hinting, it seems as if the STO is realizing this, and is backing away from the idea of joint running. All the better.

The easy solution to this is to change the Rapibus's operation from a single line to a trunk line, as was originally planned. So instead of transferring from a local bus onto the Rapibus, local Gatineau buses run all the way to Hull, with a connection to the Loop. Ottawa-bound passengers will require one transfer (as before), but you've eliminated transfers for all Hull-bound passengers (roughly half of trips). The whole reason the Rapibus wasn't operated this way to begin with was due to pressure by Ottawa to reduce the number of buses on Wellington.

__

To understand the value of the loop for the STO, you have to think about capacity. Whatever gets built is likely to be the single downtown connection for all of Gatineau's rapid transit lines for the 50-75 years. It needs to be a piece of infrastructure which can carry the demand of a third of the metro area.

An in-and-out tunnel, although undeniably faster, actually underperforms in terms of capacity. Trains can't run through, trains have to dwell longer at the station to switch cabs, and the station itself becomes a potential capacity problem. All three of these problems compound each other: longer dwells at the station decrease the train throughput, decreased train throughput increases crowding in the station. Crowding in the station increases the dwell time.

The loop, although not perfect, performs better from a capacity perspective. Through-running in both directions allows for both more trams and a more even distribution of passenger loads. More stations on the surface means that they don't face the same capacity issues as a single underground station, and can be easily expanded.

There are some valid issues with a surface loop. Things like occasional disruption or slower service. But at the end of the day, none of these are deal-breakers like capacity. You can short-turn service during events for a few hours every two months or so, but you can't make up for a line which is strained at each peak, twice per day.

The loop isn't necessary today. Passenger loads aren't there yet. But keep in mind that the first day of service will likely be 2030. We're not building it for 2020, it has to be built to future-proof or -proofable through 2100. Surface options aren't often better than tunnels. But in this particular case, the tunnel is exceptionally challenging (lack of through-running capability) and the surface option is exceptionally advantageous (no significant cross-traffic).
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Last edited by Aylmer; Nov 12, 2020 at 12:39 AM.
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2020, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
To understand the value of the loop for the STO, you have to think about capacity. Whatever gets built is likely to be the single downtown connection for all of Gatineau's rapid transit lines for the 50-75 years. It needs to be a piece of infrastructure which can carry the demand of a third of the metro area.

An in-and-out tunnel, although undeniably faster, actually underperforms in terms of capacity. Trains can't run through, trains have to dwell longer at the station to switch cabs, and the station itself becomes a potential capacity problem. All three of these problems compound each other: longer dwells at the station decrease the train throughput, decreased train throughput increases crowding in the station. Crowding in the station increases the dwell time.

The loop, although not perfect, performs better from a capacity perspective. Through-running in both directions allows for both more trams and a more even distribution of passenger loads. More stations on the surface means that they don't face the same capacity issues as a single underground station, and can be easily expanded.
THIS. With a tunnel that ends at Elgin, we can only cross, say, 30 trains into Ottawa per hour. With the loop, we can cross 30 on each bridge, for a total of 60. It's double the capacity, essential for future consideration, including the eventual conversion of the RapiBus which will plug-into the tram loop.

If it's somehow feasible to build the loop with a tunnel, then have at it, but I highly doubt the Feds are ready to put in an extra $1B-$2B for a far more complicated project that will do little to improve reliability and speed. Remember, the STO tram will be running on the street on the Gatineau side, so a full grade separation in Ottawa won't make a significant difference.

Ottawa needed to cancel the original N/S rail and build the DOTT because streets would not have had the capacity to handle the heavy bus traffic from E/W and trains from N/S. The numerous cross streets and traffic lights, the parking lanes to the right of the transit lanes, the taxis and delivery trucks blocking the transit lanes (buses can go around, but not trains). These were/would be everyday problems.

The STO Wellington option has fewer cross streets (fewer still if we close Bank to Elgin), few to no delivery trucks and the trams would have their own RoW, not shared with buses and not crossed by cars. Comparing the old N/S with the STO Wellington option is a non-starter because they are very different. The dozen or so protests, parades and festivities are not that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things. As Aylmer mentions, trains could terminate at Lyon crossing the Portage and Rideau crossing the Alexandra during these events.

That said, I personally would prefer a surface Sparks option, but Wellington is fine by me nonetheless.
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  #18  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2020, 4:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
And, if ONLY STO vehicles were allowed to run in front of the Parliament Buildings, I think that Ottawa, the City, (and many Anglos across the country) would be up in arms about the favouritism. I really can’t see that option as being acceptable, except to a few ‘romantics’ who think it might bring a ‘European flair’ to Ottawa.
Richard, are you arguing that governments should spend $500-900M on a Sparks tunnel for STO so that... anglos don't get upset about "favouritism" and to stick it to the "romantics"? I'm not following this argument at all.

The main arguments for putting the tram on the surface are efficiency and cost. The "European flair" that might be created is just a nice bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid247
There's widespread neglect of the fact that the surface option on wellington has a lot of potential for service disruptions, little opportunity for enhanced street-level interaction and vibrancy (i.e. no opportunity for street-level retail or mixed-use applications because both sides of Wellington are almost for exclusive Parliamentary Precinct uses), and how it will cut off crucial vehicular access for many buildings along Wellington.
Between Bank and Elgin (the stretch proposed to be closed to vehicles) I can really only think of one property that has direct vehicular access to Wellington- the old US embassy. I'm sure an alternative access can be found.

Regarding disruptions- as long as there is a cross-over track somewhere between Lyon and Bank to allow the trams to short-turn in case of disruptions, I don't think it will be an issue.
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2020, 12:39 AM
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As much as we shouldn't be building trams because they're "european/cute/numtot kawaii", we also shouldn't be building tunnels simply because they feel "big city/serious/subways subways subways".
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2020, 1:11 AM
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As much as we shouldn't be building trams because they're "european/cute/numtot kawaii", we also shouldn't be building tunnels simply because they feel "big city/serious/subways subways subways".
I think the Ottawa has done well to not build unnecessary tunnels with the O-train so far. The Centretown tunnel was a very worthwhile investment and anything else they are digging for seems to make sense. Which tunnels do you think we shouldn't be building? O-Train or STO under Sparks?

Last edited by Harley613; Nov 12, 2020 at 1:11 AM. Reason: Spelling
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