Highways in Canada

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Too bad the imperialists didn't get their way.

Oh, the Imperials did get their way. You see, the Spadina Expressway was a revolt against the Grand Central Fortress of Ultimate Authority by the peasants in the outlying suburban duchies. In the end, thanks to the bravery of Jane of Arc, the pesky suburban serfs were put back in their rightful place and Imperial Supremacy was re-established.

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The Allen (Expressway) in the Imperial Capital:

I've always really liked this road, it's a good way to bypass the bad traffic and compact neighbourhoods in that part of the city. Ultimately, I think it would be neat if the Imperial Government decides to extend it north to Steeles Avenue (the right-of-way is definitely wide enough) and get rid of the rest of Dufferin Street, but I know this will never happen.

[Nick.]

Originally Posted by Wharn

One city in Ontario is the Capital of Canada.

Another is the Eternal Imperial Capital, home of all that is righteous and good, defender of Civilization as we know it and the Centre of the Universe.

Guess which one I'm talking about.

haha you're mad

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by catkat

Nice pic. Where is that location on google maps? Looks like an impressive 8 lane highway. Bigger than anything Vancouver has.... inb4 gateway

Doesn't Vancouver have some 8 lane freeway on Hwy 1?

[Metro-One]

We will as of next year when the highway 1 improvements are finished, along with a 3 km long 10 lane segment as well over the bridge.

As of right now, the #1 is 6 lanes from Van to the Port Mann.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I've always really liked this road, it's a good way to bypass the bad traffic and compact neighbourhoods in that part of the city. Ultimately, I think it would be neat if the Imperial Government decides to extend it north to Steeles Avenue (the right-of-way is definitely wide enough) and get rid of the rest of Dufferin Street, but I know this will never happen.

It would be nice if the Allen were extended to the 407 somewhere in the vicinity of Centre Street in Vaughan. I live near Bathurst and Steeles and it feels so out of the way to enter the westbound 407 from Bathurst only to have the 407 jog back to the south less than 2km later.

I wonder if the original plan for the Spadina included the subway in the median towards Finch. Given the ROW that they once had along Dufferin Street between Sheppard and Steeprock

[eternallyme]

What is CityScape and how can it be purchased?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Oh, the Imperials did get their way. You see, the Spadina Expressway was a revolt against the Grand Central Fortress of Ultimate Authority by the peasants in the outlying suburban duchies. In the end, thanks to the bravery of Jane of Arc, the pesky suburban serfs were put back in their rightful place and Imperial Supremacy was re-established.

Yeah, the Spadina Expressway represented the peasants and the people, it had nothing to do with powerful interests out to make a buck and impose an auto-centric suburban model on a dense downtown neighbourhood.

I mean, look what happened: Toronto may be one of North America's most dynamic cities, an urban wonderland jam-packed with pedestrians and cyclists and dense, distinctive neighbourhoods, but has no one ever spared a thought for people who just want to cruise along an expressway through the middle of town? And now they're losing parking lots left and right to these condos.

I mean...where the fuck are you supposed to park?

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Is that photo even real?

[Robertpuant]

It must has been easy to steal a car back in the day.

[LeftCoaster]

Yep it's real, Houston back in the 70s I believe.

Its a real jem.

[catkat]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

As of right now, the #1 is 6 lanes from Van to the Port Mann.

Correction its 4 lanes + 2 HOV lanes.

Saying 6 lanes is misleading

I'd still like to know where that location on HWY 2 in Calgary is. It seems like they're leading western Canada in proper highway construction

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by catkat

I'd still like to know where that location on HWY 2 in Calgary is. It seems like they're leading western Canada in proper highway construction

I didn't take it, but seeing as you can read the road sign and all...

http://g.co/maps/ezsm2

It is a nice photo though.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by catkat

Correction its 4 lanes + 2 HOV lanes.

Saying 6 lanes is misleading

I'd still like to know where that location on HWY 2 in Calgary is. It seems like they're leading western Canada in proper highway construction

How is that misleading??? If i am not mistaken HOV lanes are counted as lanes on a highway.

Do you do the same for highways in Ontario and Alberta? Minus their HOV and other special purpose lanes?

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Yeah, the Spadina Expressway represented the peasants and the people, it had nothing to do with powerful interests out to make a buck and impose an auto-centric suburban model on a dense downtown neighbourhood.

I mean, look what happened: Toronto may be one of North America's most dynamic cities, an urban wonderland jam-packed with pedestrians and cyclists and dense, distinctive neighbourhoods, but has no one ever spared a thought for people who just want to cruise along an expressway through the middle of town? And now they're losing parking lots left and right to these condos.

The natural defence brought up by opponents of Spadina. "American Cities have rubbish downtowns with huge tracts of surface lots. Must be the expressways!"

Newsflash: expressways don't spawn surface parking, poor planning and low land value does. Just look at London's downtown. Many moons ago, the Highbury Extension and the Ring Road were both cancelled (as well as the Thames River Parkway- although I agree with getting rid of that one) and the city was left with a small expressway stub in its East End, which at the time did not serve any built-up areas. Despite the fact that there were no evil suburbanite highways anywhere to be seen, downtown London is awash in surface parking and dilapitated storefronts, and until very recently people tended to avoid it (MolsonExport can attest to this).

Cities like Houston sprawled because of bad municipal planning, cheap land and easy access to automobiles. Bad transit and expressways were more of a symptom of the underlying problem, not a cause. If your logic was correct, and building grade-separated roads through dense old neighbourhoods directly contributed to the decline of the downtown, then the same fate would have befallen Chicago, Boston and even little tiny Quebec City. But it hasn't. And don't use Detroit as an example, they've got deep-seeded problems that extend beyond simple land use incentives.

That being said, I acknowledge were some unsavoury aspects about the Spadina Expressway. The trench doesn't bother me so much because there would have been plenty of bridges to carry side streets over top of it, so access to either side of the Annex would not have been an issue. But, it would have completely destroyed Cedarvale Ravine, and it would have run right beside the U of T campus, which would essentially wreck that as well. And then there's Casa Loma. I have a problem with running a busy road through land that could be used as unique and useful public recreation space. But I have no problem with the idea of a Highway 400 extension, nor do I have an issue with a Spadina-400 link further north. Those neighbourhoods, from a heritage perspective, are worth no more than where I grew up in North York; frankly I have no problem with seeing either one destroyed if something useful comes about it.

Originally Posted by rousseau

I mean...where the fuck are you supposed to park?

In a multi-level underground garage that usually accompanies the condos, I presume. Or in one of the numerous multi-levels that sit underneath most large commercial skyscrapers.

What kind of a question is that?

[vid]

Anyone who knows Rousseau would know that his question was sarcastic, or rhetorical.

[rousseau]

Wharn, your characterization of the anti-Spadina Expressway movement as an "imperial" expression of disdain for the poor car-driving people in the suburbs is the sort of Orwellian idiocy that passes for political thought on the right these days (mostly in the U.S.).

Because it was precisely the opposite of how you characterized it. Wikipedia says:

The debate over the Spadina Expressway, and its eventual cancellation, is regarded as a watershed moment in local politics. Toronto City Council was changing at the time to oppose the "top-down" planning of the Metro government. A "Reform Era" in Toronto politics was blossoming, which brought to Toronto City Hall the likes of David Crombie, John Sewell, Allan Sparrow and Colin Vaughan. This new council viewed the Metro government and its officials with suspicion as not being accountable to local residents. In the 1950s and 1960s, Metro and City Councils had pushed through numerous large projects in transportation, and housing. The impacts on the central neighbourhoods had been substantial and had led to grassroots organizing. Councillors Sewell and Vaughan came directly from the grassroots campaigns.

It was the people forcing those in power to listen. It was democracy in action. It was a beautiful thing.

Originally Posted by Wharn

Newsflash: expressways don't spawn surface parking...

Newsflash: they're part of the same postwar mentality that sought to fashion a brave new world where the car was king and was catered to in every aspect of urban planning.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Wharn, your characterization of the anti-Spadina Expressway movement as an "imperial" expression of disdain for the poor car-driving people in the suburbs is the sort of Orwellian idiocy that passes for political thought on the right these days (mostly in the U.S.).

My god, who threw the hornet's nest in YOUR bed this morning? You haven't addressed any of my other points, including one where I mentioned the planned route of the Spadina Expressway would probably not have been a good idea. Why do you continue to attack the first post like someone with a severe bout of OCD?

Originally Posted by vid

Anyone who knows Rousseau would know that his question was sarcastic, or rhetorical.

If he's a master of sarcasm, I'm amazed he didn't detect any in my "peasants" post.

I'm still completely serious about the whole "Imperial Capital" thing though. I think it accurately reflects the way many Torontonians view their city.

Originally Posted by rousseau

It was the people forcing those in power to listen. It was democracy in action. It was a beautiful thing.

It was some people forcing the rest of Metro Toronto to listen. It was a beautiful thing for downtowners, but I can tell you with certainty people who live in the inner suburban belt are still grumbling about what could have been. Not so much with the Spadina, but you should here the number of older Scarberians complaining that metro "chickened out" with their Expressway proposal (which was shelved after the fallout from Spadina). Now they have nothing; no transit, no roads, and no half-decent proposals to solve the isolation problem. Scarborough was abandoned by Metro and nobody cared, because Scarborough was a sprawly land filled with poor people. Beautiful democracy at work; make sure our neck of the woods is exactly the way we like it, to hell with everyone else.

Originally Posted by rousseau

Newsflash: they're part of the same postwar mentality that sought to fashion a brave new world where the car was king and was catered to in every aspect of urban planning.

That's very interesting, because that means that the same sort of mentality must have arisen in Paris when they were planning their urban expressway network. Along with Lisbon, Madrid, West Berlin, Hamburg, Stockholm, Osaka, Nagoya, Tokyo, Melbourne, Sydney, and a whole bunch of other cities that also built urban expressways in the postwar years, yet are continually lauded here for having such wonderful transit systems.

Roads and transit go hand in hand. Ignoring either one produced disasterous results. Case in point: Houston's unsightly sprawl, and London's (UK) severe congestion. At the moment, transit in Toronto is disproportionately funded compared to roads. I think you're just mad that it's not getting even more funding.

[sonysnob]

I agree, I tire of the notion that Toronto's vibrance is significantly appointed to the fact that the freeway network was cancelled. The sum of a city is far more than how much of it is paved.

[rousseau]

From what i gather, opposition to the Scarborough Expressway came mainly from people east of the Don Valley, mainly in Scarborough, and not from downtowners.

Toronto's vibrancy is indeed partly due to the fact that people pushed back against expressways. How could it not be? It suggests a citizenry unwilling to have its neighbourhoods carved up for the sake of automobiles, further suggesting a greater degree of care about the integrity of its neighbourhoods and the political will to protest.

You've seen this photo of Cincinnati, right?


Vintage Cincinnati

That area was completely destroyed. It's gone, all of it gone for the sake of expressways. Go to Googlemaps and see for yourself. American downtowns are empty (save for the obvious exceptions) because they don't give a shit about downtown neighbourhoods. The great postwar imperative was to get a house and a car in the suburbs. It was Manifest Destiny writ larger than the original version of itself. Vibrant streets and shops? We've got malls, thank you very much.

Yeah, Detroit's woes are due to a toxic mixture of racism and postwar suburban expansion, so preventing freeways in Detroit wouldn't have made it an urban paradise, not by a long shot. But not every sprawling American downtown was decimated by racism--look at Atlanta, Dallas, etc. The fact that Toronto is such an urban superstar in North America clearly has something to do with the fact that people want to live in dense neighbourhoods, and have at various times opposed attempts to destroy them. It's not the only factor, obviously, but it's not insignificant.

[niwell]

Granted this plan was shelved slightly before the Spadina debacle, but the intersection of College and Grace was once planned to be a major interchange. Pretty sure the west end wouldn't have the same cache as it does now if that was paved over.

Also the eastern extension of the Gardiner would have demolished a significant number of rowhouses which are fairly unique in Toronto (on Logan and other side streets in south Riverdale). And probably some of the warehouse buildings on Carlaw which are becoming fairly popular. These things don't come back.

And for the record traffic in Scarborough is actually pretty good due to the dense arterial road network and the width of Kingston Rd east of the Danforth split. It's transit neglect is another story, but having been to every corner of the 416 from downtown (for work) via transit it's still not too bad. The worst by far to access from downtown is northwest Etobicoke.