Regina | New Mosaic Stadium

[thefourthtower]

I for one dont care about the same same old opinion the record has been broken for two years now , i believe there is mention in this forum that city to city bickering will not be torerated and this is bickering in the highest degree this is about building a new multi purpose facailty not trashing it at every possible angle, hence force it is hatred towards this project , opinions are great but this is more like do it my way or the highway .

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

As I've mentioned before, I'm very interested in stadium projects, as in the past, I did academic research on the topic. Through work, I've had a chance to meet and collaborate on people involved in this project, and similar projects in the US. Moreover, I'm a CFL fan with an interest in projects going on in our league. Lastly, I am passionate about urban redevelopment - which this project claims to be about. I'm surprised that others who claim to be all for urban design and development aren't raising similar concerns...

Here is a quick question for you, why does the province of Saskatchewan, the Mayor of Regina, 100% of city council, the majority of businesses surrounding the area (can't think of one who's spoken out against it), RROC, Tourism Saskatchewan, Evraz Place, Downtown Regina BID, Saskatchewan Roughriders football club, Regina Chamber of Commerce, Warhouse District Society, Regina Hotels Assoc, North Central Community Assoc, to name a few, disagree with you?

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

Here is a quick question for you, why does the province of Saskatchewan, the Mayor of Regina, 100% of city council, the majority of businesses surrounding the area (can't think of one who's spoken out against it), RROC, Tourism Saskatchewan, Evraz Place, Downtown Regina BID, Saskatchewan Roughriders football club, Regina Chamber of Commerce, Warhouse District Society, Regina Hotels Assoc, North Central Community Assoc, to name a few, disagree with you?

Disagree with me on which point Migs? That a stadium isn't conducive to economic development, urban revitalization, and good urban design? If so, then I would ask, why do Robert Baade, Judith Grant Long, Rick Eckstein, Andrew Zimbalist, Kevin Delaney, Neil DeMause, and virtually every other scholar on stadium development agree with me? Why does virtually all the literature on the subject line up with what I've been arguing? Why are there virtually no North American examples of where this type of thing has been successful?

Out of those people and organizations you've mentioned, which ones are willing to put their money where their mouth is? Everyone's on board, and yet no movement on an almost 2 year old report? Everyone's on board, but yet you need to continually beg the premier and mayor on twitter to get on with the project? Ask someone if they support a shiny new stadium, most will say yes - when you ask them to take out their pocket book, that's another story...

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Disagree with me on which point Migs? That a stadium isn't conducive to economic development, urban revitalization, and good urban design? If so, then I would ask, why do Robert Baade, Judith Grant Long, Rick Eckstein, Andrew Zimbalist, Kevin Delaney, Neil DeMause, and virtually every other scholar on stadium development agree with me? Why does virtually all the literature on the subject line up with what I've been arguing? Why are there virtually no North American examples of where this type of thing has been successful?

Out of those people and organizations you've mentioned, which ones are willing to put their money where their mouth is? Everyone's on board, and yet no movement on an almost 2 year old report? Everyone's on board, but yet you need to continually beg the premier and mayor on twitter to get on with the project? Ask someone if they support a shiny new stadium, most will say yes - when you ask them to take out their pocket book, that's another stor
y...

Are you even following the timeline of what is taking place with the cities proposal and are you aware who is funding the new proposal? Also are you aware of the fact that the railyards won't be vacated until the middle of next year? And all those names you mentioned above are irrelevant to me because they have no dog in this race. That said, once the election is over you'll be getting more specifics of what the funding model will look like. Like in most stadium developments, patience is a virtue and it's tough for me to say that because I am as anxious for this as anyone.

[jvj]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Disagree with me on which point Migs? That a stadium isn't conducive to economic development, urban revitalization, and good urban design? If so, then I would ask, why do Robert Baade, Judith Grant Long, Rick Eckstein, Andrew Zimbalist, Kevin Delaney, Neil DeMause, and virtually every other scholar on stadium development agree with me? Why does virtually all the literature on the subject line up with what I've been arguing? Why are there virtually no North American examples of where this type of thing has been successful?

Out of those people and organizations you've mentioned, which ones are willing to put their money where their mouth is? Everyone's on board, and yet no movement on an almost 2 year old report? Everyone's on board, but yet you need to continually beg the premier and mayor on twitter to get on with the project? Ask someone if they support a shiny new stadium, most will say yes - when you ask them to take out their pocket book, that's another story...

That's an impressive list of scholars...and other than the fact that none of them have ever been in my kitchen, I can't tell you much about them. If time permits I will do some googling and see what they have to say.

Regarding the question about who is willing to put their money where their mouth is...I think that so far the list includes the Province of Saskatchewan, the City of Regina, the Regina Hotels Association and the Saskatchewan Roughrider football club. Granted, we don't know the funding formula, and that is a huge issue, but we have to trust that those details are being worked on.

[jvj]

^^
So after a quick google search on Andrew Zimbalist I found this quote:

"Cities spend millions of dollars to support a variety of cultural activities that are not expected to have positive economic effects, such as subsidizing a local symphony or maintaining a public park. Sports teams can have a powerful cultural or social impact on a community. If that effect is valued by the local residents, then they may well decide that some public dollars are appropriate."

I was going to suggest that these people had little or no knowledge about Regina Saskatchewan or the Roughriders, but after seeing the bolded part I'm thinking maybe they have studied us! Anyways I like what he has to say in this quote and I think alot of other people from these parts agree.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by jvj

That's an impressive list of scholars...and other than the fact that none of them have ever been in my kitchen, I can't tell you much about them. If time permits I will do some googling and see what they have to say.

Regarding the question about who is willing to put their money where their mouth is...I think that so far the list includes the Province of Saskatchewan, the City of Regina, the Regina Hotels Association and the Saskatchewan Roughrider football club. Granted, we don't know the funding formula, and that is a huge issue, but we have to trust that those details are being worked on.

There was also that meeting between BHP and the Premier the other day... maybe BHP is trying to weasle itself into Saskatchewan's good books by looking into contributing... They did afterall come off in somewhat of a bad light after the tussle over Potash Corp.

Highly unlikely yes... but I'll cross my fingers for some contributions from mining companies ... The suspense of waiting for announcements is killing me, but hey... at least there is excitement in Saskatchewan again.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

Are you even following the timeline of what is taking place with the cities proposal and are you aware who is funding the new proposal? Also are you aware of the fact that the railyards won't be vacated until the middle of next year? And all those names you mentioned above are irrelevant to me because they have no dog in this race. That said, once the election is over you'll be getting more specifics of what the funding model will look like. Like in most stadium developments, patience is a virtue and it's tough for me to say that because I am as anxious for this as anyone.

Yes, I've been following the timeline. Yes, I'm aware the railyards won't be vacated until next year. Interestingly enough, the feasibility study itself makes it clear that cost estimates are based on a 2010 start date, not 2012:

Project start date is assumed to be October, 2010 and
construction of the project to be continuous. Expected
construction duration to be 34 to 36 months. Cost escalation
beyond this time frame is not included in this basis of budget.

^That's from the Capital Cost Report of the Feasibility study - http://www.cicorp.sk.ca/assets/Documents/stadium/Appendix_11_Capital%20Cost%20Report.pdf

As for "dogs in the race", you're saying that the arguments and analysis of North America's most prominent voices on sports economics/urban design of stadiums/stadiums as revitalization tools are irrelevant because they have no stake in the Regina project? What "stake" does evraz place or North Central Community Assoc have (financially) in this either? Are they putting the money up to get it done? I don't follow - usually, in making a decision on a huge public policy decision such as this, wouldn't the voices of the "experts" be listened to first and foremost? Read some of their work if you get a chance - it might open your mind to a stance other than blind boosterism, if "best practices" is something you subscribe to...

Anyway, I'm gonna take a break from the thread for a while. I'll continue to follow the progress from afar, and rejoin the debate after a significant news release or the election results. While I realize some of the Reginan posters probably hate an outsider coming in and "criticizing" their project, I have no ill will towards you at all. Any move that strengthens the CFL's long-term viability is great. However, as someone who is passionate about urban redevelopment projects and has studied stadium development, I don't want to see a prime opportunity missed because the mistakes of elsewhere are repeated. I hope the questions I bring up (Who will pay? How does this spur development? Where's the incentive for private business? Where has this been successful? Why use prime land? etc.) have at least been thought provoking.

[Migs]

Evraz place and the North Central community association are important members of the fabric of Regina and alot of what they are stand for could be directly associated with the outcome of this project. Common sense anyone? And yes you listed a bunch of names of people who mean something to you but don't mean anything to whats taking place in Regina. I can list you a bunch of names of climatologists who I think are nut jobs who spread misinformation about "climate change" so it shouldn't be difficult for you to come up with some names of "urban planners" or "economists" who have a bias against downtown covered sports and entertainment facilities.

[UPP]

Once again, Bdog misses the point. Every stadium researcher in the world can say that they don't make money, but who cares? Millions get spent annually on Wascana Centre, Regina Libraries, Art Galleries and the like.

Regina will build a stadium, that much is true. The question is, will they build one exclusively for a pro football team to be used from June to November or will they build a complex for concerts, trade shows, and other users for year round use? I personally would like to see a year round facility.

[The Bess]

yes as would I also like to see year round facility, a concert and a little casino time in the winter would be good.

[wacko]

A domed stadium makes zero financial sense for those who would build/operate it. It's a lot of added expense for a facility that would be filled up perhaps a dozen times a year. The cost to heat the interior space in winter would be more than would be covered by stadium rental fees. Plus we already have Evraz Place for interior space for trade shows and such. I see a partial roof (like Winnipeg's new stadium) as being a more likely option.

Also, Bdog has a point: stadiums are not exactly sterling examples of good urban design. A stadium is basically a big structure for sports, usually surrounded by a few acres of surface parking. If you really wanted urban renewal in the CPR yards, it'd be far better to put in mixed residential/commercial developments, and make that stretch of Dewdney similar to Whyte Avenue in Edmonton. That'd be a pretty rocking place, and much more likely to make an economic contribution, particularly since there'd actually be people living in the area. On the other hand, a stadium (of any kind) would be better located in a more marginal area where no one cares if there's a bunch of surface parking lots that sit empty most of the time.

I do want a new stadium, but I want it to be reasonable and to make sense, particularly since most of it would be built with taxpayer dollars. I don't see the private sector chipping in much more than 10% of the cost, especially when they could use those tens of millions of dollars to reinvest in themselves and make even more money. (Businesses aren't charities; they tend to look after their own interests first, and the interests of their shareholders.)

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by wacko

A domed stadium makes zero financial sense for those who would build/operate it. It's a lot of added expense for a facility that would be filled up perhaps a dozen times a year. The cost to heat the interior space in winter would be more than would be covered by stadium rental fees. Plus we already have Evraz Place for interior space for trade shows and such. I see a partial roof (like Winnipeg's new stadium) as being a more likely option.

Also, Bdog has a point: stadiums are not exactly sterling examples of good urban design. A stadium is basically a big structure for sports, usually surrounded by a few acres of surface parking. If you really wanted urban renewal in the CPR yards, it'd be far better to put in mixed residential/commercial developments, and make that stretch of Dewdney similar to Whyte Avenue in Edmonton. That'd be a pretty rocking place, and much more likely to make an economic contribution, particularly since there'd actually be people living in the area. On the other hand, a stadium (of any kind) would be better located in a more marginal area where no one cares if there's a bunch of surface parking lots that sit empty most of the time.

I do want a new stadium, but I want it to be reasonable and to make sense, particularly since most of it would be built with taxpayer dollars. I don't see the private sector chipping in much more than 10% of the cost, especially when they could use those tens of millions of dollars to reinvest in themselves and make even more money. (Businesses aren't charities; they tend to look after their own interests first, and the interests of their shareholders.)

Well said wacko. Have to agree 100% with everythig you said. Hopefully as time drags this project out, more and more sensible people with rational thoughts speak up and have their voices heard.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Well said wacko. Have to agree 100% with everythig you said. Hopefully as time drags this project out, more and more sensible people with rational thoughts speak up and have their voices heard.

And hopefully the longer this drags out, more and more sensible people with rational thoughts will see the benefits of having a larger facility that sustains our needs far into the future. And hopefully those people will speak up and have their voices heard.

Two can play that game. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't go saying it is the only rational one; there is more than one way to measure the rationality of a decision. If everyone measured rationality the same, we would really only need one political party because everyone's priorities and views would be exactly the same.

[thefourthtower]

Originally Posted by Nathan

And hopefully the longer this drags out, more and more sensible people with rational thoughts will see the benefits of having a larger facility that sustains our needs far into the future. And hopefully those people will speak up and have their voices heard.

Two can play that game. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't go saying it is the only rational one; there is more than one way to measure the rationality of a decision. If everyone measured rationality the same, we would really only need one political party because everyone's priorities and views would be exactly the same.

Well said Nathen ,if i was in the other city i would say same , city to city bickering

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Nathan

And hopefully the longer this drags out, more and more sensible people with rational thoughts will see the benefits of having a larger facility that sustains our needs far into the future. And hopefully those people will speak up and have their voices heard.

Two can play that game. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't go saying it is the only rational one; there is more than one way to measure the rationality of a decision. If everyone measured rationality the same, we would really only need one political party because everyone's priorities and views would be exactly the same.

Well TWO can play that game as well nathan. I never said my view was "the only rational" thought.

So don't put words in my mouth mate, and you won't start a war with me.

My opinion is that, my opinion. No where do I ever say it is the gospel, so don't come out swinging and you won't be taken out in the war.

How long will this thread go on before something official can be posted? Any day now, gets old after waiting months and going on years.

Maybe my grankids can catch a game in a new football stadium built in the coming decades.....

[thefourthtower]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Well TWO can play that game as well nathan. I never said my view was "the only rational" thought.

So don't put words in my mouth mate, and you won't start a war with me.

My opinion is that, my opinion. No where do I ever say it is the gospel, so don't come out swinging and you won't be taken out in the war.

How long will this thread go on before something official can be posted? Any day now, gets old after waiting months and going on years.

Maybe my grankids can catch a game in a new football stadium built in the coming decades.....

Calm down , why does this project bother you so much for its in Regina , all good things take time who would of ever thought Regina would be getting hundreds of millioms of private dollars investing in the city anything is possible, have a very good day.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Well TWO can play that game as well nathan. I never said my view was "the only rational" thought.

So don't put words in my mouth mate, and you won't start a war with me.

My opinion is that, my opinion. No where do I ever say it is the gospel, so don't come out swinging and you won't be taken out in the war.

How long will this thread go on before something official can be posted? Any day now, gets old after waiting months and going on years.

Maybe my grankids can catch a game in a new football stadium built in the coming decades.....

If you aren't familiar with the current timeline (the Mayor has stated it several times as well as CP) then why are you participating? And what is this about a "war"? Grow up.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by thefourthtower

Calm down , why does this project bother you so much for its in Regina , all good things take time who would of ever thought Regina would be getting hundreds of millioms of private dollars investing in the city anything is possible, have a very good day.

Envy, it's blatantly obvious as the most passionate detractors are from outside Regina. Strange isn't it?

[The Bess]

I have to agree with you Migs but it's not totally true, there are some of us who are hoping this comes together, we know in Saskatoon what it is like to wait for something to start and the negativety that will always come when there are delays.