The future of Hamilton's public transit

[matt602]

Over an hour one way from Ancaster?

No way.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Originally Posted by flar

I swear I used to see a 16 Ancaster bus at Mac. But that was 4 or 5 years ago.

Yep you did...because when I went to Dalewood/Westdale, my friends and I would always call it the luxury bus when it sometimes used the FunTrek coaches.

[drpgq]

Personally I thought that the example of the Delaware expansion was a bit strange too. Sprawl is hard to service with transit surprise, surprise.

With regards to needing an hour to get to Mac from Ancaster if you are a student, why`is that such a big deal? Living near Upper Ottawa and Brucedale during undergrad, it would routinely take close to an hour to get to Mac. I would rather see a service that goes across the mountain and directly to Mac as a priority over the Delaware expansion.

[JoeyColeman]

Originally Posted by drpgq

Personally I thought that the example of the Delaware expansion was a bit strange too. Sprawl is hard to service with transit surprise, surprise.

With regards to needing an hour to get to Mac from Ancaster if you are a student, why`is that such a big deal? Living near Upper Ottawa and Brucedale during undergrad, it would routinely take close to an hour to get to Mac. I would rather see a service that goes across the mountain and directly to Mac as a priority over the Delaware expansion.

That already exists during the week. Get the Mohawk or StoneChurch, connect with the Delaware 5A (The one that actually goes on Delaware - not the 5E Delaware bus that doesn't actually go to Delaware) and you're at Mac.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by JoeyColeman

That already exists during the week. Get the Mohawk or StoneChurch, connect with the Delaware 5A (The one that actually goes on Delaware - not the 5E Delaware bus that doesn't actually go to Delaware) and you're at Mac.

No I mean one continuous route, with no transfers across the mountain and down to Mac. Or does the Mohawk actually do this now? I haven't taken it for a while.

[JoeyColeman]

Originally Posted by drpgq

No I mean one continuous route, with no transfers across the mountain and down to Mac. Or does the Mohawk actually do this now? I haven't taken it for a while.

There is a transfer in Meadowlands, but the connections are good.

[SteelTown]

I was in Quebec City for a few days and noticed their public transit is almost like ours. Expect they are a little ahead but we're also ahead on some things as well.

First off they have rapid transit as well but they don't use the bendy buses just regular buses but with a lot more regular buses. Also they have bus lanes and sweet funky bus shelters for the rapid express stops, I’ll try and get a picture of it.

Think they have over 6 rapid transit systems, but again with just the regular buses.

They also have where you just tap your bus card to pay instead of swiping, which we're going to get next year I believe with Presto.

We pretty much have the same system expect we're quickly catching up. Also it's $2.75 for Quebec City.

[SteelTown]

Dundas, Ancaster bus service lags behind rest of the city

By Craig Campbell

News
Jun 27, 2008

Transit service in Dundas lags well behind other areas of Hamilton but the necessary improvements may be too expensive to make, the city's director of transit said last week.

Don Hull told the Dundas Community Council both Dundas and Ancaster are areas where "service levels need to be raised" but bringing them up to the standard applied to the rest of the city is "probably cost prohibitive"

Among the ongoing transit issues in Dundas are poor service on Dundas Route 52, scheduling problems with the B-Line stop at University Plaza and a low level of peak service in downtown Dundas.

Community council member Fiorigio Minelli noted transit service to the centre of the city is strong, but getting around Dundas is a struggle.

"All roads lead to downtown Hamilton," Mr. Minelli said. "Everything's great, if you're going to downtown Hamilton."

Mr. Hull said there are several transit groups, or organizations, helping the HSR plan transit improvements for the future. But many have competing interests. Some want limited resources directed to improving service on existing routes, others want to add new routes in several areas of the city and still others are focused on future light rail lines.

"They're all trying to do the right thing," Mr. Hull said. "But they are in competition for a limited amount of money."

But all the committees and groups appear to have created more interest and knowledge about local transit. The HSR has extensive information and data on the system, and more is rolling in. The city's transit master plan steering committee helped create a ridership growth plan, which recommended 15 priorities in the areas of service coverage, service levels and service span. One of the recommended coverage areas - the Keith Neighbourhood in Hamilton's north end - just launched the new Wentworth 12 route this week.

Dundas Route 52 and Ancaster Routes 16 and 5C were among the five areas to improve service.

An HSR runtimes committee review of the B-Line rapid bus route between Eastgate Square and University Plaza found the bus arrived at its Dundas terminal later than scheduled.

"Small negatives are not a bad thing," Mr. Hull said, explaining people who show up by the scheduled arrival time - or even shortly after - will catch their bus.

"It's the plusses - the early arrivals, when people get there on time and just see the tail lights of their bus - or very late arrivals, so they don't make their connections. When it's slightly late, people will still get that bus."

And more statistics are coming. As the HSR prepares to relocate its main western node out of McMaster University's campus, an in-depth count ridership on all routes is about to be done. Mr. Hull said when those counts are made, the results for Dundas will be brought back to the community council for input on what should be done for local bus service. One possibility is moving the western terminus of the B-Line route to Dundas town hall, and linking internal Dundas routes to that location.

[matt602]

Moving the B-Line terminus to Dundas sounds like a good idea. It would probably make the route the longest one in the city (if it isn't already).

[raisethehammer]

I think Delaware is the longest in the city, but yea, good idea. things are slowly improving with transit in the Hammer.

[flar]

It would probably be good if the B-Line came all the way into Dundas, it could serve many more people than it does from University Plaza. The only good thing about U. Plaza is there is a ton of parking for those who want to park and ride (which I do occasionally).

The intersection of Ogilvie and Governors (where A&P is located) is where all the existing Dundas routes intersect. There are quite a few apartments and condos within walking distance of that intersection and that is where the bus fills up. Before this intersection, there are usually only a handful of riders. Town Hall is only a block away and would be a good spot for the B-Line terminus.

I think the rest of Dundas should be served by half size buses, probably one or two that went in a loops. They would allow people to get around within Dundas and would act as feeders for the B-Line for those who want to go into Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

anyone who went to fireworks last night, or any other year, will know what a mess it is when the show ends.
It really highlights the horrendous lack of planning our city has endured in recent decades.
I was mentioning to my wife while sitting in traffic behind 'shuttle buses' sitting in traffic how wonderful it would be to get LRT in it's own lanes to the waterfront.
Those trains would handle thousands of people on nights like last night and whisk them back downtown in 5 minutes, not 45.
We NEED LRT in this town.

[MsMe]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

anyone who went to fireworks last night, or any other year, will know what a mess it is when the show ends.
It really highlights the horrendous lack of planning our city has endured in recent decades.
I was mentioning to my wife while sitting in traffic behind 'shuttle buses' sitting in traffic how wonderful it would be to get LRT in it's own lanes to the waterfront.
Those trains would handle thousands of people on nights like last night and whisk them back downtown in 5 minutes, not 45.
We NEED LRT in this town.

I totally agree RTH. When they made the train tracks years ago they didn't put enough in. That's probably the issue now, trying to share the tracks with the freighters I'm sure wouldnt be an easy task at all when so many of those travel the track so much.

That was one benefit with Japan being an island they weren't sharing the tracks with freighters and their bullet system is excellent. When I was there many moons ago, we hopped the bullet and were at the paces in no time.

[omro]

Don't get cross with me, if this is covered somewhere on pages 24-40+ as I'm only on page 23 and I'm still reading uptodate and I only started reading this thread yesterday....

Are only two initial LRT lines proposed now or three? I've gotten very confused. I love that map concept on the opening page of this thread. Is there a current map of the proposed routes?

If LRT goes ahead. What are the chances of:

A line going down Barton Street, as that area could benefit from the regeneration.

Additional lines being put in soon after, if the initial lines are the run away success they obviously will be?

If only two, it's best to pick two direct (and thus cheaper to construct), few detour routes that are "proof of concept". With high rider volume, it shouldn't be hard to convince the local government to invest the money saved from the initial scheme and new money into building more lines in the future.

Sorry if this has already been covered, I'm still trying to catch up.

[matt602]

There are 2 official lines proposed:

A North/South line (A-Line) along Upper James from the Hamilton Intl. Airport in the South to the waterfront in the North.

An East/West line (B-Line) from roughly McMaster University in the West to Eastgate Square in the East, along various different routes (Queenston, Main, King mostly). The Western terminus is still up in the air, just recently the idea of going all the way to Dundas has been tossed around. The Eastern terminus has also been questioned and an idea of going farther into Stoney Creek has come up. The B-Line is currently already a Monday-Friday Express bus route from University Plaza in the West to Stoney Creek (I can't remember where exactly). It is served by articulated 60 foot buses mostly from the morning until 7pm at night on weekdays.

Aside from the two official lines, theres also rumour of a "C-Line" that would run East/West along the Mountain, probably on Mohawk Rd from roughly Upper James to Highway 20. This one is just an idea for now.

A line going down Barton St. is definitely a good guess if LRT is well received on the two officially proposed routes. I would guess it would go from Downtown to somewhere in Stoney Creek (Fruitland maybe?). If it does happen, it will most likely be serving at least 2 GO stations and at least one major shopping outlet (Centre Mall and possibly another in the East around Highway 20).

[omro]

Originally Posted by matt602

There are 2 official lines proposed:

A North/South line (A-Line) along Upper James from the Hamilton Intl. Airport in the South to the waterfront in the North.

An East/West line (B-Line) from roughly McMaster University in the West to Eastgate Square in the East, along various different routes (Queenston, Main, King mostly). The Western terminus is still up in the air, just recently the idea of going all the way to Dundas has been tossed around. The Eastern terminus has also been questioned and an idea of going farther into Stoney Creek has come up. The B-Line is currently already a Monday-Friday Express bus route from University Plaza in the West to Stoney Creek (I can't remember where exactly). It is served by articulated 60 foot buses mostly from the morning until 7pm at night on weekdays.

Aside from the two official lines, theres also rumour of a "C-Line" that would run East/West along the Mountain, probably on Mohawk Rd from roughly Upper James to Highway 20. This one is just an idea for now.

A line going down Barton St. is definitely a good guess if LRT is well received on the two officially proposed routes. I would guess it would go from Downtown to somewhere in Stoney Creek (Fruitland maybe?). If it does happen, it will most likely be serving at least 2 GO stations and at least one major shopping outlet (Centre Mall and possibly another in the East around Highway 20).

Talking strictly as someone who has only spent one week in Hamilton...

Westdale to Eastgate is a great idea. I'd ignore the eastern end of King and only use the part west of the Delta which is the road that goes to Eastgate, right? I'm a bit sketchy on the bus route as I only went there once. IMHO Main desperately needs a refocus. King still feels like a nice road in places, infact I often walked along King from Balsam across to the Cathedral because it was a nicer road to walk along than Main. Sure it had it's blah spots, but Main was more uniformly blah as it just seemed to be cars zooming past, exhaust fumes (not fun for a pedestrian) and not much to do other than to walk quickly along to your destination. Though you could tell that it once was quite a nice street. Main felt much wider than King. If I were to put LRT on King Downtown, I would only do that as part of a later scheme.

Something desperately needs to be done about Barton, a nice LRT link along that road into the Downtown would inject "something" into that road. There were some fantastic warehouses on that street, lofts anyone?

I didn't really visit the mountain, except Limeridge mall. Is it just me or is that not that easy to get to from downtown? Admittedly my family were staying on Balsam so we all trudged to Ottawa to catch the bus and I never checked to see if you could get to it from downtown.

Back to LRT, I think I read somewhere that the "A" line won't be going to the Mall. Is that right? I personally think that needs to be included, either as a spur so that you can get on an "A" line that stops at the airport or an "A" line that stops at the Mall and they alternate.

Personally I think that if they get the first two lines right and the "proof of concept" works, it won't be hard to expand upon to include new lines. In the UK every city that's installed a tram system, as we like to call LRT, has seen a major revitalisation of their inner city and announced plans for more lines or extensions of the ones they set up.

Again most of this has been covered, but I want to join in!

[omro]

Again, sorry if this has already been mentioned elsewhere, I'm getting distracted and only on page 25 of this thread. So again this is my two pence from an outsider's perspective...

If the second station goes in at James Street N. Why can't they use the old station building? I know it's now a banqueting suite, but in the UK councils can enact compulsary purchase orders on buildings and land. Why create something shabby when something rather nice looking already exists for the purpose. That great old building would be a fantastic "Welcome to Hamilton". Any new building would have to be something rather special to top that. You can have a banquetting suite pretty much anywhere, but a station has a geographic limitation.

Alternatively, can't the ground floor be a station again and the upper floors stay as an banquetting suite?

[omro]

OK, I'm up to page 35 now. lol.

One thing I want to comment on, again based on an outsider's perspective, is this debate about whether or not to have the two stations and why bother having two that are a short enough distance away from each other, etc.

In London, King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston Stations are all within walking distance of each other. Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street stations also. Waterloo, London Bridge and Charing Cross. Paddington and Marylebone. With the exception of St Pancras (which admittedly is right next door to King's Cross) I've never heard of anyone suggesting that they amalgamate any of the other stations together, just because they are close to each other. Though I'm happy to stand corrected.

I've never seen it as a huge issue having the two within a short distance of each other, since I'm usually using each station for a totally different journey and surely so will anyone who uses the two in Hamilton? Having two stations is surely a plus not a detriment, as each station is able to service a different geographical region with greater ease than shoe-horning the other to do so. Plus it splits capacity between them.

Also, this may be totally incorrect, but aren't the different stations serving a different purpose? I thought the Hunter Street Station only was in operation a limited time during the day and that the James Street Station was intended to run more or less all day, plus VIA.

Why would having the two confuse people? People aren't likely to get off one train and need to get on another at the other station. Or are they?

If you do need to link the two up and the city is going to go down the LRT route, linking the two up in the scheme of the north/south LRT would make the most practical sense.

Hopefully I've not read these conversations totally incorrectly, it is 2am here, so my brain my not be processing accurately, lol.

Edit: Also, had this thought. If they put GO and VIA into the James Street Station, would that not allow people to the opportunity to justify the upgrades to the Hunter Street Station's tunnel and associated tracks? If there is a working station at James Street, people won't be too inconvenienced if they shut down the Hunter Street station and dig up its tunnel and associated tracks - as there will still be rail access into the city.

[SteelTown]

No free ride for taxpayers?

BY DANA BROWN

A new city staff report says a free transit system would cost taxpayers more than $30 million a year.

The shortfall would translate into about $161 more in taxes for a home assessed at $250,000.

The report, which outlines several options for fare cutting on the Hamilton Street Railway and the Accessible Transportation Services, will be presented to a city committee tomorrow.

Staff have asked councillors to direct them on which free transit items should be included in next year’s plans.

The report says an additional $30.9 million would be needed to run a free HSR if ridership jumped 20 per cent.

The additional cash would include $5 million to $10 million to implement more service.

Ridership on a free system could increase as much as 50 per cent, the report says, although the initial jump would likely be from existing riders using the system more.

For ATS, a minimum of $900,000 would be lost in annual fares.

In 2007, 21.1-million trips were taken on the HSR. The system generated $28.9 million in revenue.

Councillor Sam Merulla, who initially raised the issue of free transit last year, is convinced it’s the way to go.

“I think it’s an idea or a concept that inevitably will happen,” he said.

“It’s a question of when.”

Merulla said system upgrades would be part of the plan, making it more convenient for people to travel around the city.

With rising oil and gas prices, the cost to taxpayers would be worth the trade off for convenient travel, he adds, in addition to the environmental and social benefits of the plan.

Last year, council approved raising transit fares twice, bringing the cost of a cash fare to $2.40 as of Jan. 1. A ticket increased to $1.85 and monthly passes increased $8 to $79.

Councillor Tom Jackson explained that he doesn’t support free transit, although he’s open to having the issue deferred to the 2009 budget.

Jackson said the move should be looked at in the context of rapid transit development, in addition to having widespread public consultation.

He also raised the idea of seeking outside funding for such an initiative.

“I’m just saying we need to look at it in the whole global context,” Jackson said.

Hamilton has one free fare program, the waterfront shuttle, which runs from June 24 to Sept. 3 at no charge.

In addition to outlining free transit initiatives, staff are also recommending expanding the city’s Employer Commuter Pass program.

Currently municipal employees can have a portion their transit pass paid for by the city.

Staff would like to see that subsidy increased, as well as developing a pass for other employers. Hamilton Health Sciences is now piloting the project with some of its workers.

[SteelTown]

Options city staff have outlined to provide some form of free transit:

* Free rides from Canada Day to Labour Day. Cost: $5 million-plus.

* No fares on smog and heat alert days, in addition to increased parking rates at municipal lots. Cost: $50,000 in lost revenue per weekday.

* Free transit during council-endorsed special events like Commuter Challenge Week. Cost: $350,000 in lost revenue per week.

* Free weekday service, by day of the week.

* No fares on weekends, such as free Sundays to encourage shoppers to use transit.

* Free travel for seniors during off-peak periods.