LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[MoreTrains]

Of DEVCORE, I prefer the overall look of their proposal. Rendez-Vous, I prefer their layout. Upon first glance, I fell in love with the DEVCORE proposal, then they showed the arena, and I was confused as to what it was. In the Rendez-Vous proposal I was happy to see that they buried the LRT and that the arena was very evident.

This makes it hard to decide who I like best. I think I like DEVCORE better because it is outlandish and very much the antithesis to Ottawa right now.

It would be awesome if they could do a mixed approach. Mix and match of items. I think that regardless of who wins Ripleys Aquarium and the Brewseum (so long as it had a major focus on Ottawa's brewing history) should be included.

[lrt's friend]

I have one complaint about both proposals, and that is the location of LRT stations, so that the centre of this development, the arena, is mid way between two LRT stations. This is a multi-billion dollar development, on a multi-billion dollar transit line. We will have thousands of residents, thousands of employees and thousands of visitors, yet we have our transit stations inconveniently on the periphery. Instead of building a station right into the heart of this development, we are either going to bury it or bridge it.

I think about the experience at CTC and the long walk in a windswept parking lot to your car in the dead of winter. Now, we are substituting possibly a longer walk across a windswept square to access transit. All these outdoor amenities are great spring to fall, but if it is -30C in January, it would be nice to have an integrated transit station. But is there no real willingness by the bidders or the city to really think about this? I hate those red circles on maps saying that a station is close enough. This is supposed to be a massive attraction therefore transit should be very convenient. It is like having St. Laurent station located on the east side of St. Laurent Boulevard instead of next to the shopping centre.

It all seems that this is a federal project and because transit is municipal, the connections are a secondary consideration. Reminds me of the mess at the VIA Rail station with no pedestrian connection to Trainyards, almost a stone's throw away from Tremblay Station. Federal versus municipal and no coordination or cooperation in serving the public well.

[daud]

As I mentioned in the poll area; I love both proposals. I think yesterday was a big win for Ottawa.

Rendez-Vous is lacking 1 or 2 attractions

Devcore is lacking 1 or 2 design and layout components (burying the LRT is one).

The end result, either way, once tweaked will be great. It is amazing how quickly the mindset of the Lebreton plans and Ottawa overall has changed in the press.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have one complaint about both proposals, and that is the location of LRT stations, so that the centre of this development, the arena, is mid way between two LRT stations. This is a multi-billion dollar development, on a multi-billion dollar transit line. We will have thousands of residents, thousands of employees and thousands of visitors, yet we have our transit stations inconveniently on the periphery. Instead of building a station right into the heart of this development, we are either going to bury it or bridge it.

I think about the experience at CTC and the long walk in a windswept parking lot to your car in the dead of winter. Now, we are substituting possibly a longer walk across a windswept square to access transit. All these outdoor amenities are great spring to fall, but if it is -30C in January, it would be nice to have an integrated transit station. But is there no real willingness by the bidders or the city to really think about this? I hate those red circles on maps saying that a station is close enough. This is supposed to be a massive attraction therefore transit should be very convenient. It is like having St. Laurent station located on the east side of St. Laurent Boulevard instead of next to the shopping centre.

It all seems that this is a federal project and because transit is municipal, the connections are a secondary consideration. Reminds me of the mess at the VIA Rail station with no pedestrian connection to Trainyards, almost a stone's throw away from Tremblay Station. Federal versus municipal and no coordination or cooperation in serving the public well.

*Mic Drop

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have one complaint about both proposals, and that is the location of LRT stations, so that the centre of this development, the arena, is mid way between two LRT stations. This is a multi-billion dollar development, on a multi-billion dollar transit line. We will have thousands of residents, thousands of employees and thousands of visitors, yet we have our transit stations inconveniently on the periphery. Instead of building a station right into the heart of this development, we are either going to bury it or bridge it.

I think about the experience at CTC and the long walk in a windswept parking lot to your car in the dead of winter. Now, we are substituting possibly a longer walk across a windswept square to access transit. All these outdoor amenities are great spring to fall, but if it is -30C in January, it would be nice to have an integrated transit station. But is there no real willingness by the bidders or the city to really think about this? I hate those red circles on maps saying that a station is close enough. This is supposed to be a massive attraction therefore transit should be very convenient. It is like having St. Laurent station located on the east side of St. Laurent Boulevard instead of next to the shopping centre.

It all seems that this is a federal project and because transit is municipal, the connections are a secondary consideration. Reminds me of the mess at the VIA Rail station with no pedestrian connection to Trainyards, almost a stone's throw away from Tremblay Station. Federal versus municipal and no coordination or cooperation in serving the public well.

Actually, I think it's a great asset to have an equidistant arena.

- It generates walk-by activity: All those people walking to or from the arena will pass by the bars and restaurants. If LRT is right under the arena, it'd be more convenient for them to just skedaddle back to the suburbs, but when you've got stuff on the way to LRT, then I'd be willing to bet that MANY more people would decide to stop in. Even if they don't, their mere presence on the streets creates interest and vibrancy. Plus, is anyone really NOT going to go to a Sens game because they have to walk three or four minutes?

- It distributes the flow: 18 000 people is more people than one station could handle without creating long waits, safety problems and frustration. By putting the arena in the middle, it will both split the traffic between Bayview and Pimisi AND, as I talked about in the last point, cause a lot more people to stay instead of immediately rushing off.

- It doesn't hog prime ToD space: An arena has a very big footprint, but only generates occasional bursts of activity. For a RT station, it's better to put more constant generators of activity such as residences, offices, shops and other services right beside it. If you have one major event per week, it'd still generate less ridership than 1000 residents who travel several times every day.

It's exactly BECAUSE this is such an important investment that we should strive to have it create as much spin-off as possible. An arena atop a station tells people "Come fast, then go home", but an arena at the end of a vibrant commercial street invites you to come early and linger, generating lots of economic and civic activity in the process. It's not a ten minute walk through a Kanata parking lot, it's a four minute walk along a canal and shops. There are worse things in life.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Great renderings are nice,

Know what else would be nice for this (and any other project)?

Renderings that show winter.

[Uhuniau]

yeah I'm with Aylmer on the equidistant thing.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, I think it's a great asset to have an equidistant arena.

- It generates walk-by activity: All those people walking to or from the arena will pass by the bars and restaurants. If LRT is right under the arena, it'd be more convenient for them to just skedaddle back to the suburbs, but when you've got stuff on the way to LRT, then I'd be willing to bet that MANY more people would decide to stop in. Even if they don't, their mere presence on the streets creates interest and vibrancy. Plus, is anyone really NOT going to go to a Sens game because they have to walk three or four minutes?

- It distributes the flow: 18 000 people is more people than one station could handle without creating long waits, safety problems and frustration. By putting the arena in the middle, it will both split the traffic between Bayview and Pimisi AND, as I talked about in the last point, cause a lot more people to stay instead of immediately rushing off.

- It doesn't hog prime ToD space: An arena has a very big footprint, but only generates occasional bursts of activity. For a RT station, it's better to put more constant generators of activity such as residences, offices, shops and other services right beside it. If you have one major event per week, it'd still generate less ridership than 1000 residents who travel several times every day.

It's exactly BECAUSE this is such an important investment that we should strive to have it create as much spin-off as possible. An arena atop a station tells people "Come fast, then go home", but an arena at the end of a vibrant commercial street invites you to come early and linger, generating lots of economic and civic activity in the process. It's not a ten minute walk through a Kanata parking lot, it's a four minute walk along a canal and shops. There are worse things in life.

Very well put. This is exactly right.

Also, the whole site is vacant. It's not like they couldn't put the arena over a station if they wanted to. The placement of the arena between the stations is entirely deliberate, for the reasons that you state.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

yeah I'm with Aylmer on the equidistant thing.

Me too.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, I think it's a great asset to have an equidistant arena.

- It generates walk-by activity: All those people walking to or from the arena will pass by the bars and restaurants. If LRT is right under the arena, it'd be more convenient for them to just skedaddle back to the suburbs, but when you've got stuff on the way to LRT, then I'd be willing to bet that MANY more people would decide to stop in. Even if they don't, their mere presence on the streets creates interest and vibrancy. Plus, is anyone really NOT going to go to a Sens game because they have to walk three or four minutes?

- It distributes the flow: 18 000 people is more people than one station could handle without creating long waits, safety problems and frustration. By putting the arena in the middle, it will both split the traffic between Bayview and Pimisi AND, as I talked about in the last point, cause a lot more people to stay instead of immediately rushing off.

- It doesn't hog prime ToD space: An arena has a very big footprint, but only generates occasional bursts of activity. For a RT station, it's better to put more constant generators of activity such as residences, offices, shops and other services right beside it. If you have one major event per week, it'd still generate less ridership than 1000 residents who travel several times every day.

If there are not enough trains to handle the passenger load, there are not enough trains, whether you split traffic to more than one station or not. Inevitably, everybody going east, will walk to Bayview Station, and everybody going west, will walk to Pimisi Station. People will learn fast, that this is only way to get home without waiting for several trains.

If you have a station at the arena, you could have a siding with a couple of extra trains waiting for major events so you can clear away the passengers faster.

Regardless, this is not a trick pony, there is more than an arena in the area, so there would be traffic all the time.

And why make me walk if I want to go home immediately after a game? If you want to hit a bar, go for it. But don't begrudge me a degree of convenience.

As I said, we didn't build St. Laurent station on the east side of St. Laurent Boulevard for a reason.

And if you have limited mobility? Walk? Be my guest if you need to push someone in a wheelchair for 500m. I have had to do such a thing.

This is one fickle group, when inconvenience is considered an asset.

And what happens in Montreal, there is a subway station connected directly to the Bell Centre. And Toronto, the Air Canada Centre is immediately adjacent to Union Station, with subway, streetcar, and Go Transit service. Sounds like small town thinking here.

[Boxster]

In 15 years time, I believe that Le Breton and Zibi developments will attract a large number of tourists to the west side of downtown which was ignored for a long time except for the War Museum.

[Uhuniau]

Know what else would be useful in this brave new century?

Google Earth overlays of each proposal.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If there are not enough trains to handle the passenger load, there are not enough trains, whether you split traffic to more than one station or not. Inevitably, everybody going east, will walk to Bayview Station, and everybody going west, will walk to Pimisi Station. People will learn fast, that this is only way to get home without waiting for several trains.

I didn't say that the LINE couldn't handle it. I said the STATION. You can flush 18k people in about a half hour, but they're not going to fit on the platforms of one single station!

And why make me walk if I want to go home immediately after a game? If you want to hit a bar, go for it. But don't begrudge me a degree of convenience.

And if you have limited mobility? Walk? Be my guest if you need to push someone in a wheelchair for 500m. I have had to do such a thing.

This is one fickle group, when inconvenience is considered an asset.

Oy vey, a whole 500m? Life is indeed short and brutish.

And what happens in Montreal, there is a subway station connected directly to the Bell Centre. And Toronto, the Air Canada Centre is immediately adjacent to Union Station, with subway, streetcar, and Go Transit service. Sounds like small town thinking here.

Well, judging from the sterile emptiness that surrounds both of those arenas, I would seriously question whether those should be our role models.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If there are not enough trains to handle the passenger load, there are not enough trains, whether you split traffic to more than one station or not. Inevitably, everybody going east, will walk to Bayview Station, and everybody going west, will walk to Pimisi Station. People will learn fast, that this is only way to get home without waiting for several trains.

If you have a station at the arena, you could have a siding with a couple of extra trains waiting for major events so you can clear away the passengers faster.

Regardless, this is not a trick pony, there is more than an arena in the area, so there would be traffic all the time.

And why make me walk if I want to go home immediately after a game? If you want to hit a bar, go for it. But don't begrudge me a degree of convenience.

As I said, we didn't build St. Laurent station on the east side of St. Laurent Boulevard for a reason.

And if you have limited mobility? Walk? Be my guest if you need to push someone in a wheelchair for 500m. I have had to do such a thing.

This is one fickle group, when inconvenience is considered an asset.

And what happens in Montreal, there is a subway station connected directly to the Bell Centre. And Toronto, the Air Canada Centre is immediately adjacent to Union Station, with subway, streetcar, and Go Transit service. Sounds like small town thinking here.

What about those going South on the O-train? If you build the arena over Pimisi, then they will be fighting to get on the train with all the others just to go one station to transfer to the Otrain? Or worse, walk all the way to Bayview in the -30 weather to avoid this inconvenience I just stated? FAIL idea

What if you build the arena over Bayview station? Not any better, huge clusterfck with everyone going East, West and South from the arena converging all at once at one station. again, FAIL.

The way the arena is placed in the Rendezvous plan, at least the people going South are not screwed, they have the same walk as the ones going East or West. And the crowds get dispersed over 2 stations. Yes the ones going East will go to Bayview and West will go to Pimisi, but at least each station will be less crowded.

As for your examples, look at MTL and the Big Owe. Its placed right in between two metro stations. I have been to events there with over 40,000 people and everything works quite well. Its a 5 minute walk to either station, depending on which side of the Stadium you exit.

As for the Bell Centre, I really hope that Lebreton's street life is way more interesting than what you have around the Bell Centre, which is just barren and uninviting to people who would like to come early or stick around, after events.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Radster

What about those going South on the O-train? If you build the arena over Pimisi, then they will be fighting to get on the train with all the others just to go one station to transfer to the Otrain? Or worse, walk all the way to Bayview in the -30 weather to avoid this inconvenience I just stated? FAIL idea

What if you build the arena over Bayview station? Not any better, huge clusterfck with everyone going East, West and South from the arena converging all at once at one station. again, FAIL.

The way the arena is placed in the Rendezvous plan, at least the people going South are not screwed, they have the same walk as the ones going East or West. And the crowds get dispersed over 2 stations. Yes the ones going East will go to Bayview and West will go to Pimisi, but at least each station will be less crowded.

As for your examples, look at MTL and the Big Owe. Its placed right in between two metro stations. I have been to events there with over 40,000 people and everything works quite well. Its a 5 minute walk to either station, depending on which side of the Stadium you exit.

As for the Bell Centre, I really hope that Lebreton's street life is way more interesting than what you have around the Bell Centre, which is just barren and uninviting to people who would like to come early or stick around, after events.

Who said move the arena? Just build a new station to give good access. If you are going south, you don't have much choice but to walk. Of course, I have complained forever about the lack of planned interlining.

And concerning the comment about the lack of space to handle the passengers, this is not underground, so allow lots of space at the station platform at this location. As I said, everybody is going to end up at the same station anyways depending on the direction you are traveling. When I hear this kind of comment, I wonder how the Confederation Line will handle Canada Day crowds especially with only two underground stations reasonably close to Parliament Hill. This is why we will never see the Confederation Line open in advance of Canada Day 2017. It will never handle the crowds.

[Speedy Gonzales]

Relax, folks. I have no doubt that come 2036 the Sens will be playing at a refurbished Canadian Tire Centre and LeBreton Flats will be perfectly boring piece of green space. Because that's the Ottawa way.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Radster wrote

What about those going South on the O-train?

Exactly! And it is looking more likely that the Trillium Line will be extended to the airport. If it ever comes about that Trillium is extended across the City owned railway bridge to Gatineau--wow! Zibi, Lebreton, the Arena,the Library, and other attractions become very accessible to a lot of people who can leave the car at home and use public transit.

[zzptichka]

It's actually 300m of nice and straight walking.
Now people have to walk even further through the parking lot and cross the road.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Who said move the arena? Just build a new station to give good access. If you are going south, you don't have much choice but to walk. Of course, I have complained forever about the lack of planned interlining.

Interlining will not solve the problem with station capacity especially if you build one station in close proximity to the arena. Splitting the load, even if westbound passengers walk east first or vice versa is the sensible thing to do. Not only is the capacity of the station an issue but the capacity of the train itself may be an issue. It will certainly be an issue for the Trillium line passengers with its current frequency and capacity. If ever there was a reason for extending the Trillium line across the river to Gatineau, this is it. We are not talking about walking a long distance from either Bayview or Pimisi to get to either of the proposed arenas.

[lrt's friend]

I will add that a Skytrain station is half a block from Rogers Arena in Vancouver with the Expo and Millennium Lines interlined, heaven forbid.