Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec has a pseudo-embassy called a Délégation Générale in Paris.

France's diplomacy has consulates at least in Montreal and Quebec City, though I am not familiar enough with them to say if they are a bigger deal than consulates France probably also has in Chicago or Monterrey, Mexico.

Not sure about Chicago or Monterrey but the Quebec delegation is smaller than the one in Toronto. Though in fairness if you add Montreal it would dwarf Toronto but that would mostly because of Consular services being much more needed.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

France's diplomacy has consulates at least in Montreal and Quebec City, though I am not familiar enough with them to say if they are a bigger deal than consulates France probably also has in Chicago or Monterrey, Mexico.

I've just checked and apparently the general consulate of France in Québec City acts as a de facto embassy of France in Québec since de Gaulle's visit in 1967. Consulates normally only deal with their own nationals, they do not conduct political business or meet local political leaders, but the general consulate in Québec City conducts political business, meets Québec politicians, and acts as an embassy. It only keeps informed the French embassy in Ottawa of the political business it is conducting, but doesn't receive orders from Ottawa. The general consulate in Québec City receives orders directly from the Quai d'Orsay in Paris and not via Ottawa.

A fascinating setting really. Pretty unique. I suppose the French ambassador in Ottawa must be as suspicious of what the general consulate in Québec City is doing as the federal government is suspicious of the Québec government. Turf wars I suspect...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Not sure about Chicago or Monterrey but the Quebec delegation is smaller than the one in Toronto. Though in fairness if you add Montreal it would dwarf Toronto but that would mostly because of Consular services being much more needed.

France has a beautiful embassy in Ottawa which is almost the next-door-neighbour of 24 Sussex and Rideau Hall. It would dwarf (and guide) any other diplomatic activities it would have anywhere in Canada.

That said, regardless of the presence they have in Toronto (vs Montreal and Quebec City), the relationship between Quebec and France is far more close, significant and dynamic than that between Ontario and France - and maybe even between Ontario and the UK.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct, though I think they were scaled back in recent years (by the Charest or Couillard Liberals? ) and so they many not still have them in all these cities?

I remember Couillard cut the Vancouver bureau and Ottawa bureau is still around (?).. but Quebec still maintains the Toronto bureau, which my SO is involved with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I remember Couillard cut the Vancouver bureau and Ottawa bureau is still around (?).. but Quebec still maintains the Toronto bureau, which my SO is involved with.

Quebec's Toronto bureau is pretty important, I'd say.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct, though I think they were scaled back in recent years (by the Charest or Couillard Liberals? ) and so they many not still have them in all these cities?

EDIT: current list

Bruxelles
Dakar
Londres
Los Angeles
Mexico
Munich
New York
Paris
Tokyo

I would have thought Quebec had a Délégation Générale in Barcelona (over Munich and some of these others too), but I guess not.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

France has a beautiful embassy in Ottawa which is almost the next-door-neighbour of 24 Sussex and Rideau Hall. It would dwarf (and guide) any other diplomatic activities it would have anywhere in Canada.

That said, regardless of the presence they have in Toronto (vs Montreal and Quebec City), the relationship between Quebec and France is far more close, significant and dynamic than that between Ontario and France - and maybe even between Ontario and the UK.

Agreed any links Ontario has with France is through Quebec as the intermediary. Quebec is Canada's bridge to mainland Europe.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Québec's society would NEVER tolerate the level of verbal and physical violence of the NFP.

Watching the (crazy) evening political news on TV now. To illustrate what I was saying, I've just seen the leader of the NFP (Mélenchon) saying to journalists: "Ras l'bol de votre histoire ! Allez au diable !!"

Question to the Québec forumers here: could you imagine any QS leader saying this?

[Acajack]

It's fascinating how non-British or un-British Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada are when you consider how recent the British roots of millions of people are, compared to how to distant the roots of French Canadians in France are. (And of course the fact that Canada still has legal ties to the British monarchy.)

I bet you François Legault doesn't have any known relatives in France at all, and this is basically the case for all French Canadians except for a handful of people where fairly recent (think a couple of decades) immigration is what is involved.

Whereas Doug Ford's grandparents were born in England. He is just a bit older than me, so he would likely have known a number of British members of his family as a child.

Since I grew up in Anglo-Canada, I know how common this is. Many of my classmates had British parents and even more of them had British grandparents.

This just doesn't exist for French Canadians.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Watching the (crazy) evening political news on TV now. To illustrate what I was saying, I've just seen the leader of the NFP (Mélenchon) saying to journalists: "Ras l'bol de votre histoire ! Allez au diable !!"

Question to the Québec forumers here: could you imagine any QS leader saying this?

Probably not. Mélenchon is way more aggressive and angry than any mainstream Quebec politician we have. To this day I still can't believe that video I saw where he made fun of that reporter's accent and pretended not to understand her.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's fascinating how non-British or un-British Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada are when you consider how recent the British roots of millions of people are, compared to how to distant the roots of French Canadians in France are. (And of course the fact that Canada still has legal ties to the British monarchy.)

I bet you François Legault doesn't have any known relatives in France at all, and this is basically the case for all French Canadians except for a handful of people where fairly recent (think a couple of decades) immigration is what is involved.

Whereas Doug Ford's grandparents were born in England. He is just a bit older than me, so he would likely have known a number of British members of his family as a child.

Since I grew up in Anglo-Canada, I know how common this is. Many of my classmates had British parents and even more of them had British grandparents.

This just doesn't exist for French Canadians.

I think it has to do with the fact that Anglo-Canadians descend from way more than just British people, because for 150 years the immigrants integrated only in the Anglophone culture, so Anglo-Canada is very diverse. French Canada was much more closed in, with only a few Irish immigrants integrating in the Francophone culture, so the French Canadians still predominantly descend from French settlers, which explains the higher degree of connection with France.

That plus the fact that as a small dominated group in an Anglophone ocean, they need to keep a link with France to sort of maintain their "francité", so to speak. If the French Canadians were 300 million and at the head of the superpower of North America, surely the ties with France would be far less strong, and the Francophones of North America would not be looking towards France a lot, the way the Americans don't look towards the UK a lot. But as a small minority you have no other choice but keep in touch with the old motherland really.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's fascinating how non-British or un-British Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada are when you consider how recent the British roots of millions of people are, compared to how to distant the roots of French Canadians in France are. (And of course the fact that Canada still has legal ties to the British monarchy.)

Probably has to do with the fact that America is already Anglo-Canada's primary cultural anchor. For Quebec, the only real choice is France in this regard.

Anglo-Canada also has much more cultural affinity with Americans than the UK, given its proximity and influence. If USA was far far away on another continent, then perhaps Canada could end up with closer UK ties like Australia and NZ.

Those with Irish or Scottish backgrounds tend to celebrate their own ethnic heritage, and I don't think they're particularly interested in the pan-British Commonwealth identity.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's fascinating how non-British or un-British Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada are when you consider how recent the British roots of millions of people are, compared to how to distant the roots of French Canadians in France are. (And of course the fact that Canada still has legal ties to the British monarchy.)

I bet you François Legault doesn't have any known relatives in France at all, and this is basically the case for all French Canadians except for a handful of people where fairly recent (think a couple of decades) immigration is what is involved.

Whereas Doug Ford's grandparents were born in England. He is just a bit older than me, so he would likely have known a number of British members of his family as a child.

Since I grew up in Anglo-Canada, I know how common this is. Many of my classmates had British parents and even more of them had British grandparents.

This just doesn't exist for French Canadians.

Didn't Quebec have any further immigration after the original ones? That makes me wonder why not? Some of us UK Anglo descendants do have lines that go back a few generations though, my UK ancestors were born in the 1700s. They came over in the George Washington - Thomas Jefferson era, or for Quebecers, around the Louis XVI era. I guess that makes me pure tweed.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

Didn't Quebec have any further immigration after the original ones? That makes me wonder why not?

Guess.

As if the British imperial authorities were going to allow French immigration after 1760!

In any case French migration to Canada had already stopped many decades before the British conquest. Nearly all French Canadians descend from French people who arrived in the 2nd half of the 17th century. French migration, which was always very small, totally stopped after the 1680s. That's why North America speaks English and not French today, despite the fact there were 20 million French people as opposed to only 5 million English people.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would have thought Quebec had a Délégation Générale in Barcelona (over Munich and some of these others too), but I guess not.

It has an "Office" in Barcelona. I doubt the Government of Spain would countenance more elevated status.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Agreed any links Ontario has with France is through Quebec as the intermediary. Quebec is Canada's bridge to mainland Europe.

Ontario's (trade/economic) presence in France works out of the Canadian Embassy. I can't really think of a context in which Quebec would be a "bridge" between Ontario and France. Perhaps wrt a French investment in Quebec that subsequently expands to Ontario?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's fascinating how non-British or un-British Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada are when you consider how recent the British roots of millions of people are, compared to how to distant the roots of French Canadians in France are. (And of course the fact that Canada still has legal ties to the British monarchy.)

I bet you François Legault doesn't have any known relatives in France at all, and this is basically the case for all French Canadians except for a handful of people where fairly recent (think a couple of decades) immigration is what is involved.

Whereas Doug Ford's grandparents were born in England. He is just a bit older than me, so he would likely have known a number of British members of his family as a child.

Since I grew up in Anglo-Canada, I know how common this is. Many of my classmates had British parents and even more of them had British grandparents.

This just doesn't exist for French Canadians.

That excludes a lot of Anglophiles/Scotophiles but I suppose it's not really surprising. Those recent generations generally left the UK out of need and took a conscious decision to build a new life in the New World.

[Acajack]

Federal government sends rep that doesn't speak French to explain bridge replacement project to Gatineau officials at official presentation. Oh yeah and the federal department he works for is even based in Gatineau... Québec!

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/a...GLLK2FFCNOFIY/

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That excludes a lot of Anglophiles/Scotophiles but I suppose it's not really surprising. Those recent generations generally left the UK out of need and took a conscious decision to build a new life in the New World.

This describes my grandparents/mom who moved here in the late 50s. They left the UK at a pretty rough time in that country's history due to lack of opportunity and didn't look back, to the point of never even visiting again. While I've definitely run across Anglophiles and most in my crowd are pretty aware of what's happening in the UK election (an outlier to be fair), the above situation describes most with English backgrounds I've known. Complaints about the classism and parochial nature of life in the UK was a common thread I heard growing up.

This coincided with a lot of formative experiences in an ascendant Canada that became much more (relatively) important on the world stage. To this extent the recent British roots of many Anglo Canadians is probably a factor in how un-British they are.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Guess.

As if the British imperial authorities were going to allow French immigration after 1760!

.

There was almost no French immigration to Canada for about 200 years, and when things started to loosen up a bit in the 1960s and 1970s, it was only a tiny trickle.

I knew a university professor in Montreal who immigrated in the 1970s and he had to transact only in English with the Canadian embassy in Paris and immigration department in Ottawa. They even made him pay to get his French diplomas translated into English even though he came here to teach in French at the Université de Montréal.

Ironically, Canada did let in an appreciable number of francophones from Belgium and Switzerland to homestead on the Prairies for example. I guess it didn't click in at the time with Canadian government officials who may have thought they spoke "Belgian" or "Swiss"?

Even today you will find the odd non-French Canadian surname interspersed in the small francophone communities on the Prairies.