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  #8921  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 4:34 PM
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Winnipegger's post touches on some of the complexity of the challenges facing downtown Winnipeg. Socio-economic issues may now be the biggest single set of challenges... more so than parking, transportation, taxation of surface lots or whatever.

To carry on with our current approach is essentially cargo cultism as urban planning policy... building the trappings of a successful city in hopes that we will become one. It's no likelier to work for us than it did for the Pacific Island cargo cults of the 1950s and 60s who hoped that building runways and aircraft would bring back the US military that brought so many nice things to their islands during WWII.

Is this basically what we're doing with publicy-funded or subsidized projects like Portage Place, the arena, Manitoba Hydro Place, blocking off lanes for road diets, etc. without addressing the many other conditions that have led to our current situation?

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  #8922  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post

3) Transit: Our transportation woes are not easy to solve. Yes, every city struggles with this. But as we've all discussed, our main roads downtown (Portage and Main) are a blight to urban, pedestrian friendly development, but also serve the bulk of downtown and cross-town traffic. Taking steps to fix that isn't easy and will come with high political and citizen resistance. You can talk about mode shift until you are blue in the face, and most people will just laugh at you. Transit's plan to start with making rapid transit in the downtown area is a good step, but shifting Winnipegger's preferences from car to bus is going to be difficult, and more likely influenced by market forces (cost of car ownership/gas/parking) as opposed to better bus service.

...and no, tolls will not work on our terrible road network.

It's important to set our expectations so that they align with reality. "Fixing" downtown will not come overnight. As many here know, most of the revitalization requires one critical ingredient: people living downtown. Without that, downtown in the evening is just an empty (and sometimes unsafe) husk of its daytime self. But getting people to live downtown is the tricky part. It requires solving issues 1 to 3 above under the reality of issues 4 and 5. And we need to chip away at these issues little by little because change will move at a glacial pace, but we need to be consistent over the coming years and decades.


Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Just wanted to address a couple of things. Agree that rapid transit downtown is good, but we keep pretending that somehow Winnipeg will come up with something entirely unique and "made in Manitoba" for transit, which is really fucking dumb. BRT here doesn't really do any of the things that a functional system should because we are ignoring the combined wisdom of all other developed places. Transit needs to serve established routes and dense areas.

Transit is great, but proper roadways are also required. Even places like Rotterdam and Amsterdam have freeways, let's get with the program and have one or two built to at least provide alternative routes to people to avoid them having to go along Portage or Main to traverse the city.

Tolls: tolls will not work on our existing network: correct. To help fund some of the freeways, it may not be a terrible idea to toll them. Tolls don't seem to deter a lot of folks from using freeways in other cities.

Downtown residents: I think it will also take some improvement to the west end and the north end to help downtown. Downtown should be the place everyone wants to be, and all areas radiating outwards should be more desirable as a result. The poverty issue is not one easily solvable, nor any of the other social issues facing us. The only thing that will improve that is some shift at a grassroots level. Leadership can only do so much. But in the meantime, when it comes to strategic investment, we shouldn't abandon downtown either and hope it happens purely organically. We may have to look to other places that went through rough times to get some ideas and try and implement them here.
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  #8923  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 8:34 PM
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Ctv reported last night Winnipeg has the 3rd worst traffic congestion in Canada after Toronto and Vancouver.
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  #8924  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 8:40 PM
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https://twitter.com/holz_bau/status/1628842802758172673

Relevant to our discussion.

Shutting down Osborne from River to Pembina would be a truly excellent way to get some bodies "downtown" and revitalize the sad state of the Village.
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  #8925  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 10:03 PM
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Windsor Hotel on Garry St has been sold. Residents of the hotel have been given eviction notice. Sounds like a potential redevelopment.
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  #8926  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 10:51 PM
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All of the comparisons made above, to Amsterdam or Chicago or even, in my post, Detroit, are of course aspirational. But that was sort of the point, we can aspire a little can't we? Of course any change that happens in Winnipeg has to be specific to this place, and all of the issues Winnipegger and others have pointed too. But we can take some of the good, and avoid the bad, that other cities, in revitalizing their downtowns, are doing. Part of the reason I pointed to Detroit (which is also about to fully remove one of those freeways bordering downtown), is that if any place has deep socio-economic problems, and not to mention being the literal birth place of car culture, it's Detroit. It's food for thought, that's all, not a concrete proposal, and the points made above are all certainly valid.
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  #8927  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbending View Post
Windsor Hotel on Garry St has been sold. Residents of the hotel have been given eviction notice. Sounds like a potential redevelopment.
Kind of sad to hear honestly. Say what you will but having these sorts of places around give a city...character.

I have some real ambivalence towards out-of-province developers' recent enthusiasm for downtown Winnipeg. So far this development spree has added up to...not very much at all. Certainly not a desirable neighbourhood, or a vibrant cultural scene.

Last edited by Coil; Feb 23, 2023 at 11:10 PM.
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  #8928  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Coil View Post
Kind of sad to hear honestly. Say what you will but having these sorts of places around give a city...character.

I have some real ambivalence towards out-of-province developers' recent enthusiasm for downtown Winnipeg. So far this development spree has added up to...not very much at all. Certainly not a desirable neighbourhood, or a vibrant cultural scene.
I definitely agree with you about the loss of character being an issue, however I believe that only applies when the place has been properly maintained and currently viable as a structure/venue. The Windsor is a fucking dump, I have been on the music scene as an attendee and a DJ for 15 years, and the last 8 or so years, no one books the Windsor anymore who actually wants people to ever come to their show again. Last show I went to there, I had water drip on my head from above, only to look up and see it was a leaking sewer drain elbow, and there was a huge brown stain on the carpet at my feet. The place stinks like stale booze and cigarettes. The clientele there has also degraded and it doesn’t feel like an overly safe place to go for a drink or a show. I miss the Windsor 15 years ago, but the Windor today I’m glad to see it being hopefully ripped down, or even better, gutted and inside-out renovated (the latter probably unlikely).

The Pyramid Cabaret is an example of a venue that has been properly operated and maintained just well enough to still feel like it has character, but not enough to feel like it has any sense of gentrification, or has declined into a gross shithole. Just did a show there two weeks back on a Saturday, we had 200 people out, and the best sound system in town. Dave McKeigan has done a great job being a good steward of that building, and he’s doing a good job as the new-ish owner of the Royal Albert Hotel and it’s return as a respectable venue.
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  #8929  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by WinCitySparky View Post
I definitely agree with you about the loss of character being an issue, however I believe that only applies when the place has been properly maintained and currently viable as a structure/venue. The Windsor is a fucking dump, I have been on the music scene as an attendee and a DJ for 15 years, and the last 8 or so years, no one books the Windsor anymore who actually wants people to ever come to their show again. Last show I went to there, I had water drip on my head from above, only to look up and see it was a leaking sewer drain elbow, and there was a huge brown stain on the carpet at my feet. The clientele there has also degraded and it doesn’t feel like an overly safe place to go for a drink or a show. I miss the Windsor 15 years ago, but the Windor today I’m glad to see it being hopefully ripped down.
Yea, I don't disagree, there are obviously other things going on here.

But the forces of change seem to homogenize the economic makeup of the area. Manitoba Housing becoming luxury apartments, seedy hotels turning into luxury apartments, turning every artist loft into a condo...

It's at least worth asking, if we care about downtown Winnipeg as much as we all claim, what kind of city are we making? I think trying to hang onto some diversity is important. You're right that the Pyramid is a great example.
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  #8930  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 12:08 AM
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I hear you, it would have taken an owner with deep pockets to buy it and really go all out repairing it, like Pollard did with the Times Changed/Fortune Block. More people with money and the good vision are what’s needed, unfortunately.
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  #8931  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 3:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbending View Post
Windsor Hotel on Garry St has been sold. Residents of the hotel have been given eviction notice. Sounds like a potential redevelopment.
Hopefully not like the Boyd Building on Portage Ave - where someone bought it, kicked everyone out aaaaand now its completely abandoned.

I wonder how that business plan works.
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  #8932  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 1:13 PM
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The Windsor property is sizable as it includes the 43 stall surface lot to the south. It is half an acre - same size as the newly completed Smith St Lofts (not including parkade). Would be a great spot for a 8 to 15 storey apartment building...I know I'm getting ahead of myself but.
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  #8933  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 1:40 PM
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Article mentions it’s a tax sale as well, maybe explains the seemingly low price tag for all that land
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  #8934  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 2:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbending View Post
Windsor Hotel on Garry St has been sold. Residents of the hotel have been given eviction notice. Sounds like a potential redevelopment.
I might be out to lunch but I seem to remember someone here mentioning a long time ago that the chipmans owns the mitzi property. I'd hate to see mitzi's close but that is a lot of underutilized space. If TN Development got their hands on the Windsor it would allow for a great development property that could move at an efficiency rate like their other developments. Just wishful thinking on my part.
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  #8935  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 5:26 PM
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I'd be surprised if the Windsor has been sold....it wasn't a month ago and I can't imagine it being a quick sale.....it's most likely been taken by the city for taxes and is now being cleared out and put up for sale....it has such a cool connection to Charlie Chaplin, it will be sad to see it go.

hopefully any potential development celebrates that history in some way.

Last edited by trueviking; Feb 24, 2023 at 7:10 PM.
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  #8936  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 5:54 PM
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^^^You are talking about the Windsor Hotel, right?
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  #8937  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 7:09 PM
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ha ha...oops....fixed.
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  #8938  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 9:21 PM
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  #8939  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 10:13 PM
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East of the red recplex at park City Commons report came in. $90 million. Includes 2 pools, gym, fitness facilities, etc. 1 of the pools is an accessible wave pool, one where it's like a beach and you can just walk in. Hope this goes ahead.

http://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/DMIS/perm...(RM)ETC-21.pdf
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  #8940  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2023, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
Ctv reported last night Winnipeg has the 3rd worst traffic congestion in Canada after Toronto and Vancouver.

That's what happens when city planners built Winnipeg as several distinct areas, instead of a grid system like Edmonton and Calgary. Even though Edmonton now has far more people than Winnipeg, the traffic is noticeably not as bad.
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