Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

^^its been determined already your opinion on the subject doesn't mean much blueandgoldguy

About as much as yours?

And mine?

[SaskScraper]

^^ I add factual information as well as references to support my details..
some thing I have yet to see from either of you two.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Being better prepared doesn't mean they'll be able to thwart a relocation. There's only so much they can do.



The owners of the Thrashers were losing money and no longer wanted to own the team and no one wanted to buy the team to keep them in Atlanta - so they basically forced a relocation in order to get a sale by no longer allowing the team to play in their arena.



They may not want to be a part of it - but that doesn't mean they can stop it.

The only reason the Coyotes weren't relocated 10 years ago was that Glendale was subsidising their losses. Glendale found a loop-hole in the ridiculous lease agreement they offered the Coyotes and backed out of it. Now the NHL and the Coyotes are looking for someone else to build them an arena in order to get someone else to cover their losses. No one is biting and it looks as if the state of Arizona won't pass a bill to allow for a new arena to be built using public money.

The Coyotes have hit the end of the road and will be relocating... it's only a matter of when and where.

The Hurricanes owner can't find anyone who's willing to buy the team and keep them in Carolina. So eventually he'll get tired of waiting and the NHL will have no choice but to allow relocation.

Eventually Seattle (if they ever get approval to build an arena) and Quebec City will get teams. Don't be surprised if Portland winds up being a landing spot also.

So much stupid..

CAROLINA

“I assure you this team is not going to Quebec,” Karmanos told Le Journal de Quebec. (Quotes translated by Sportsnet.) “I’m not saying that because I have anything against Quebec but because we have commitments here. We have an excellent lease, I love this arena, and I’m deeply attached to this market.”

Karmanos has been seeking a majority owner for the Hurricanes for well over a year but is disgusted by the idea that he is considering moving the club to Quebec, one of two cities that applied for an NHL expansion team.

“People told me about those rumours, but there’s absolutely nothing to them,” Karmanos said. “You guys are the only ones asking me questions about this. The real enigma, whether or not you want to believe me, is to find out who’s starting these rumours.”

The coyotes are in a better position now than they have been since 2003. They have owners that are commited to the team. They will make it work in talking stick arena if need be. Downtown phoenix which they have already go the OK to play in if they can't get a new arena built. Rumour has it both the yotes and suns are looking for a new building downtown phoenix. Either way they arent leaving.

portland...with a 27 year old arena. And no team to move there

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

So much stupid..

CAROLINA

We'll see what happens with Carolina. Karmanos went from wanting to only sell part of the team to being open to the idea of selling the whole team. Eventually when no one will want to buy the team to keep in Carolina, he'll have no choice but to sell to someone outside of the state.

The coyotes are in a better position now than they have been since 2003. They have owners that are commited to the team. They will make it work in talking stick arena if need be. Downtown phoenix which they have already go the OK to play in if they can't get a new arena built. Rumour has it both the yotes and suns are looking for a new building downtown phoenix. Either way they arent leaving.

You've got to be fucking kidding me. Have you been following the Coyotes situation at all? I think you're just pulling shit out of your ass.
The owners have NO MONEY.. They're committed as long as someone can subsidize the team. They will NOT move to Talking Stick. The problem isn't the lack of an arena or the location of it - it's needing someone to cover their losses. Gila River arena was praised as a great arena and a good location and the owners said they're committed to the area and that it'll work. The very second Glendale got out of the lease agreement (which included an a ridiculous arena management fee), all of a sudden Gila River arena isn't good enough and they need to move elsewhere. Talking Stick doesn't work because the Suns have no need for the Coyotes because they have no reason to split their revenues. A new shared arena doesn't change anything. So the Coyotes owners are begging for someone to build them a new arena just for them - which isn't going to happen. The bill to get funding for it is being rejected.

So much stupid indeed.

[J.OT13]

Normally, I don't support governments investing money into a new venue for a professional sports team (talking NHL, not CFL). What happened in Québec, where Québecor got the City and Province to pay 100% of the arena, is a travesty. Nor am I a fan of the Edmonton deal where the City funded a huge chunk.

Here in Ottawa, a government town that has seen slow growth over the past 4 years, the break-even Sens where able to rally local developers, big builders, investment firms, trusts and even Brookfield to invest in a new arena and surrounding district. They will buy Federal land that has sat vacant for over 50 years for market value, decontaminate the area, cover a metro line and build without asking for funding from any level of government. All they will request is approval for existing grants and tax breaks that exist for companies who want to develop contaminated land.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/05/08/going-all-in-on-lebreton-anatomy-of-a-successful-bid

Now if we can do this in Ottawa, there is no reason why the Flames can't do the same for the arena and stadium. Even if the oil sector has suffered through a downturn (which has been slowly recovering), they will bounce back within a few years, as they always do.

BUT, I have to play the devil's advocate. The situation in Calgary is different in several ways. First off, the Sens own their arena, which gives them a 150 million dollar asset to play with. The Saddledome is owned by the City and McMahon by the University. Add in the City's field house fiasco, and the fact that CFL teams (even if owned by the same people as the NHL team) do not fund their own stadiums.

In Calgary's case, I conclude that the City should somehow invest in a new stadium and, at the very least, should do everything in its power to facilitate the planning and construction of a new arena.

[J.OT13]

I think the NHL is waiting on Seattle to get their shit together so they can move the Coyotes. It's a matter of time.

Carolina will eventually move to Québec. Give it 5 years.

I have no facts or figures, just a gut feeling.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What happened in Québec is a travestie, where Québecor got the City and Province to pay 100% of the arena is a travesty. Nor am I a fan of the Edmonton deal where the City funded a huge chunk.

Finally somebody acknowledges that.

The infuriating part was the Edmonton SUN was one of the most vocal opponents of the arena in Edmonton, despite being owned by Quebecor at the time. They bitched and moaned about Edmonton's deal, which is appearing to turn out pretty good for everybody, but didn't say a word about QC. Spinkle in Some provincial funding for QC as well....christ.

I hope it's Quebec's version of Copps coliseum.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Normally, I don't support governments investing money into a new venue for a professional sports team (talking NHL, not CFL). What happened in Québec is a travestie, where Québecor got the City and Province to pay 100% of the arena is a travesty. Nor am I a fan of the Edmonton deal where the City funded a huge chunk.

Here in Ottawa, a government town that has seen a slow growth over the past 4 years, the break-even Sens where able to rally local developers, big builders, investment firms, trusts and even Brookfield to invest in a new arena and surrounding district. They will buy Federal land that has sat vacant for over 50 years for market value, decontaminate the area, cover a metro line and build without asking for funding from any level of government. All they will request is approval for existing grants and tax breaks that exist for companies who want to develop contaminated land.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/05/08/going-all-in-on-lebreton-anatomy-of-a-successful-bid

Now if we can do this in Ottawa, there is no reason why the Flames can't do the same for the arena and stadium. Even if the oil sector has suffered through a downturn (which has been slowly recovering), they will bounce back within a few years, as they always do.

BUT, I have to play the devil's advocate. The situation in Calgary is different in several ways. First off, the Sens own their arena, which gives them a 150 million dollar asset to play with. The Saddledome is owned by the City and McMahon by the University. Add in the City's field house fiasco, and the fact that CFL teams (even if owned by the same people as the NHL team) do not fund their own stadiums.

In Calgary's case, I conclude that the City should somehow invest in a new stadium and, at the very least, does everything in its power to facilitate the planning and construction of a new arena.

I am totally impressed with the progress Ottawa has made so far. Obviously Ken King and the Flames have their heads up their asses with the lame ass idea they proposed.

On a side note though - I am not convinced the oil industry will be as booming as it was in the past. This downturn has been especially bad and has a different feel than the previous ones. I'm no expert but it seems to me that with technology changing so fast now (fracking, alternative fuel research) it seems like our expensive tar/oil will never be cost effective. Of course I hope I'm dead wrong about that!

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

^^ I add factual information as well as references to support my details..
some thing I have yet to see from either of you two.

Show your facts where Saskatoon has outgrown it's arena then?

End of the day whether you supply "facts" or not, it's your opinion. Worth two squirts of monkey piss to anyone on here.

I don't come on here to supply "facts"....

[king10]

so uh. any stadium or arena pictures?

[Horus]

Originally Posted by king10

so uh. any stadium or arena pictures?

Here's Olympic Stadium in baseball mode - in honour of the upcoming Jays pre-season games at the end of the month.

[tomthumb2]

^^^ For all its (many) warts, the Big O can be great when the crowd gets going. I still remember the place shaking, and yes, that's without chunks of concrete falling :-)

Plus, I still think it's a cool piece of architecture from the outside.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

^^^ For all its (many) warts, the Big O can be great when the crowd gets going. I still remember the place shaking, and yes, that's without chunks of concrete falling :-)

Plus, I still think it's a cool piece of architecture from the outside.

LOL, concrete chunks. Yes like the Skydome it can be unwelcoming and cavernous inside, but when full they are both electric. I think the Skydome was called the loudest stadium 2 years ago for baseball. Anyway I still think the Big O is one of the coolest looking stadiums ever built.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Show your facts where Saskatoon has outgrown it's arena then?

End of the day whether you supply "facts" or not, it's your opinion. Worth two squirts of monkey piss to anyone on here.

I don't come on here to supply "facts"....

There aren't any "facts" that support that. What there is is a growing amount of complaints about the arena now that it is being filled on a regular basis instead of once or twice a year. Common complaints include location (it's on the edge of the city with nothing surrounding it, it is inaccesible and going to a Rush game means sitting in traffic for upwards of an hour to get in/out), size (the concourses and amenities were designed for an arena of 9,000 people, and Sask Place currently sits 15,000), safety concerns (is the building adequately prepared to evacuate a capacity crowd), and logistics (the roof is old and no longer capable of supporting the lighting needed for a lot of concerts, which results in Saskatoon being skipped over for a lot of events; the sound is also just awful).

The city is currently looking into building a new arena downtown, but nothing is promised. Hopefully they won't do it. I've heard it be tossed around that a new arena is needed to compete with cities like Edmonton... does anyone else see the problem with that? Saskatoon doesn't have the money to build a new arena downtown, especially when the economic spinoff would be small. Improving accessibility and renovating should be what the city focuses on, and that's definitely needed.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

That field looks pixelated...and kinda dangerous.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

There aren't any "facts" that support that. What there is is a growing amount of complaints about the arena now that it is being filled on a regular basis instead of once or twice a year. Common complaints include location (it's on the edge of the city with nothing surrounding it, it is inaccesible and going to a Rush game means sitting in traffic for upwards of an hour to get in/out), size (the concourses and amenities were designed for an arena of 9,000 people, and Sask Place currently sits 15,000), safety concerns (is the building adequately prepared to evacuate a capacity crowd), and logistics (the roof is old and no longer capable of supporting the lighting needed for a lot of concerts, which results in Saskatoon being skipped over for a lot of events; the sound is also just awful).

The city is currently looking into building a new arena downtown, but nothing is promised. Hopefully they won't do it. I've heard it be tossed around that a new arena is needed to compete with cities like Edmonton... does anyone else see the problem with that? Saskatoon doesn't have the money to build a new arena downtown, especially when the economic spinoff would be small. Improving accessibility and renovating should be what the city focuses on, and that's definitely needed.

The needs of the users and patrons of SaskTel Centre have definitely out grown the facility itself. Garth Brooks concerts alone last year injected $10 million into Saskatoon economy.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-new...brooks-record-smashing-stay-in-saskatoon

http://globalnews.ca/news/2745132/garth-brooks-concerts-projected-to-boost-economy-by-10-million/

Spending money to refurbish the centre is a possibility but consensus is Saskatoon city council & its citizens would rather spend the money on a new downtown facility.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-news/downtown-arena-support-split-poll-says

Saskatoon has spent a Billion dollars already this decade on 3 new bridges and an art gallery so a new arena isn't even one of the bigger projects the city could undertake right now.

[Dalreg]

So Saskatoon built 3 new bridges, spent billions on transport. Yep that equates well with spending hundreds of millions for a new downtown arena that will not be needed for decades.

A dozen or two times a year at capacity, Saskatoon can deal with that. If not then don't go. I have never complained once about the current arena, as I remember the previous old barn downtown....

[king10]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

The needs of the users and patrons of SaskTel Centre have definitely out grown the facility itself. Garth Brooks concerts alone last year injected $10 million into Saskatoon economy.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-new...brooks-record-smashing-stay-in-saskatoon

http://globalnews.ca/news/2745132/garth-brooks-concerts-projected-to-boost-economy-by-10-million/

Spending money to refurbish the centre is a possibility but consensus is Saskatoon city council & its citizens would rather spend the money on a new downtown facility.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-news/downtown-arena-support-split-poll-says

Saskatoon has spent a Billion dollars already this decade on 3 new bridges and an art gallery so a new arena isn't even one of the bigger projects the city could undertake right now.

Don't think that justifies a new arena.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

The needs of the users and patrons of SaskTel Centre have definitely out grown the facility itself. Garth Brooks concerts alone last year injected $10 million into Saskatoon economy.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-new...brooks-record-smashing-stay-in-saskatoon

http://globalnews.ca/news/2745132/garth-brooks-concerts-projected-to-boost-economy-by-10-million/

These two links don't support the idea that Saskatoon has outgrown the facility. If anything, they demonstrate that Sask Place is still able to generate tons of revenue for the city despite its flaws.

If it had been revealed that the arena lost money last year despite the Garth Brooks concerts and the Rush, then there would be a reason for a replacement to be seriously considered, but right now I don't see how anything but its location can't be fixed by a renovation. Concourses can be expanded, new concessions and bathrooms can be built, the roof can be fixed. Given the arena is nowhere near capacity for most events (and other cities similar to us have arenas half the size), I'd say we haven't even approached outgrowing Sask Place.

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Spending money to refurbish the centre is a possibility but consensus is Saskatoon city council & its citizens would rather spend the money on a new downtown facility.

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-news/downtown-arena-support-split-poll-says

Saskatoon has spent a Billion dollars already this decade on 3 new bridges and an art gallery so a new arena isn't even one of the bigger projects the city could undertake right now.

I don't know if I'd call it consensus since it is a 40/35 split between a downtown arena and renovations. When you factor in the upgrades Saskatoon would have to make to its transit system and downtown accessability, the cost would be much higher than I think most Saskatoonians would be comfortable with (not to mention the talk now is building a convention centre to replace TCU as well). A new arena would be anywhere from 250-500 million dollars, so it would absolutely be one of the bigger projects Saskatoon could undertake; the art gallery costs a fraction of that.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

These two links don't support the idea that Saskatoon has outgrown the facility. If anything, they demonstrate that Sask Place is still able to generate tons of revenue for the city despite its flaws.

If it had been revealed that the arena lost money last year despite the Garth Brooks concerts and the Rush, then there would be a reason for a replacement to be seriously considered, but right now I don't see how anything but its location can't be fixed by a renovation. Concourses can be expanded, new concessions and bathrooms can be built, the roof can be fixed. Given the arena is nowhere near capacity for most events (and other cities similar to us have arenas half the size), I'd say we haven't even approached outgrowing Sask Place.

Sask Rush have routinely sold out each game this year, I'd bet Rush owner Bruce Urban has already been in talks to add the extra thousand seats to bring SaskTel Centre to 16,000 capacity. Each time concerts like Garth Brooks or Dixie Chicks or Bieber or Mars etc etc sell out, they are limiting the revenue they could be getting in a bigger facility. Other cities with arenas half the size get nowhere even fraction of same number of events as Sasktel Centre which got all the same concerts but two that the Barclays Center in Brooklyn got last year.

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I don't know if I'd call it consensus since it is a 40/35 split between a downtown arena and renovations. When you factor in the upgrades Saskatoon would have to make to its transit system and downtown accessability, the cost would be much higher than I think most Saskatoonians would be comfortable with (not to mention the talk now is building a convention centre to replace TCU as well). A new arena would be anywhere from 250-500 million dollars, so it would absolutely be one of the bigger projects Saskatoon could undertake; the art gallery costs a fraction of that.

The main reason talks of a new arena are at the fore front is because SaskTel Centre has already reached its half life and doesn't make sense to spend 10s of $millions on upgrading it that could be spent on a new coliseum, & more accessible downtown, with the add on revenues that could benefit businesses downtown and fitting the cities 'Growing to half million' people strategy in the next couple decades. Maybe not popular with some of the older Saskatoon tax payers such as yourself but that kind of thought is what got arena half way to Martensville to begin with.

Less than a fraction of a percent of number of people will go to the new $110 million Remai modern art gallery that would benefit from a new coliseum, TCU place's Sid Buckwold theatre isn't going to be replaced by the way.