TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Dengler Avenue]

swimmer_spe showed me that map too. Other than the 2 no brainers - College Drive/Gormanville Road and Algonquin Avenue, though, will there be any interchange on the east side?

[sonysnob]

^ They'll be an interchange at Highway 63, and the interchange at Highway 17 will be reconfigured.

[swimmer_spe]

17 through North Bay is not much of an issue. The real issue is how to get Highway 11 North through North Bay area. Berms or viaducts are non starters. Buying the land adjacent to Algonquin Ave is also a non starter.

You could build a bridge around "Stepping Stones" at the end of Macpherson's drive in Corbeil, as the land is close enough, but really, unless it was for highway 11, it would be useless to do that.

[Dengler Avenue]

In that case, we might as well abandon the plan to upgrade North Bay Bypass and go for a 3-quarter North Bay Perimeter Freeway instead...

Or we can do both, but toll the latter.

[sonysnob]

Actually, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if when push comes to shove, the MTO just buys up all of the property along the east side of Algonquin Avenue. The only notable building on the east side of the road is the medical building, which is probably far enough back that they could just have their parking lot relocated. Assuming the MTO chose to do something along Alongquin that is.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Actually, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if when push comes to shove, the MTO just buys up all of the property along the east side of Algonquin Avenue. The only notable building on the east side of the road is the medical building, which is probably far enough back that they could just have their parking lot relocated. Assuming the MTO chose to do something along Alongquin that is.

Will that hurt Fedeli’s re-election though?

After all, I find it sad that we have to do in North Bay what we used to do to build freeways.

IMO, though, Algonquin Avenue makes sense: Turning 11 into a freeway within the boundary/confine of North Bay gives MTO leverage when it comes to negotiating with Nipissing 10 for future Highway 17 expansion. If the provincial government wanna hardball, it can bypass the reserve.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Actually, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if when push comes to shove, the MTO just buys up all of the property along the east side of Algonquin Avenue. The only notable building on the east side of the road is the medical building, which is probably far enough back that they could just have their parking lot relocated. Assuming the MTO chose to do something along Alongquin that is.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Will that hurt Fedeli’s re-election though?

After all, I find it sad that we have to do in North Bay what we used to do to build freeways.

IMO, though, Algonquin Avenue makes sense: Turning 11 into a freeway within the boundary/confine of North Bay gives MTO leverage when it comes to negotiating with Nipissing 10 for future Highway 17 expansion. If the provincial government wanna hardball, it can bypass the reserve.

Fedeli can take the hit, but it won't happen before the next provincial election. Buying those properties likely will happen over 10+ years.

I doubt the bypass through North Bay will be changed anytime before the next election either.

[Dengler Avenue]

(1) It takes that long to acquire properties?

(2) Any thought on the part about potential leverage in the FN negotiation regarding future Highway 17 expansion westward?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

(1) It takes that long to acquire properties?

(2) Any thought on the part about potential leverage in the FN negotiation regarding future Highway 17 expansion westward?

1) If you don't want political backlash it does.

2) In what way? FN have all the cards.

[Dengler Avenue]

(2) Really? Even when the highway upgrades are happening within a city?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

(2) Really? Even when the highway upgrades are happening within a city?

The minute it crosses the FN boundary it is no longer in the city.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Will that hurt Fedeli’s re-election though?

After all, I find it sad that we have to do in North Bay what we used to do to build freeways.

IMO, though, Algonquin Avenue makes sense: Turning 11 into a freeway within the boundary/confine of North Bay gives MTO leverage when it comes to negotiating with Nipissing 10 for future Highway 17 expansion. If the provincial government wanna hardball, it can bypass the reserve.

Looking at the map, yes, the city route makes the most sense.

Forcing freeways through cities are unpopular nowadays, especially when it involves forcing owners to relocate. The days of Robert Moses (a NYC city planner who had a very pro-freeway agenda) are long gone. The way to accomplish this is to quietly buy property as it comes on the market.

There's not much grassroots demand for a freeway either locally.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

(2) Really? Even when the highway upgrades are happening within a city?

The FN's are much wiser now. They also have much stronger legal backing. If the MTO wants to upgrade the highway, they'll have to pay for that - the FN knows it will cost much more to bypass the reserve.

[sonysnob]

Buldozing properties for highway expansion projects may not be as popular as it once was before the freeway revolts of the late 60s and early 70s, but it's still common place. Just for an example, to twin the Sixteen Mile Creek bridge in Oakville ten or so years ago, all of these properties were bought and removed:



Further east, there are significant property impacts proposed along the north side of the QEW for the Dixie Road interchange project, in addition to any widening between Dixie and the Credit River bridge.

This subdivision street was taken out in Windsor for the extension of the 401:

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

Looking at the map, yes, the city route makes the most sense.

Forcing freeways through cities are unpopular nowadays, especially when it involves forcing owners to relocate. The days of Robert Moses (a NYC city planner who had a very pro-freeway agenda) are long gone. The way to accomplish this is to quietly buy property as it comes on the market.

There's not much grassroots demand for a freeway either locally.



The FN's are much wiser now. They also have much stronger legal backing. If the MTO wants to upgrade the highway, they'll have to pay for that - the FN knows it will cost much more to bypass the reserve.

sonysnob’s the engineer here so he can correct me if I’m wrong.
This is my thinking though:
For a 4-lane freeway, if we cheapen out and don’t overbuild, it should only be (2.5 + 3.75 * 2 + 1.1) * 2 + 0.6 * 3 = 24 meters wide. 2.5 for right shoulders, 3.75 for each lane, 1.1 for left shoulders, and 0.6 for concrete barriers.

For service roads, one lane per direction, plus bike lane, it’ll be (3.2 + 1.6) * 2 = 9.6 meters.

In total, we only need to widen the overall roadway to 33.6 meters, which may not be hard to do.

I’m also surprised that people are complacent with an arterial of AADT 22K littered with traffic lights.

I still think Ontario overbuilds a lot of its highways though (except the RIRO part of 11 and of 35/115 which is of another side of the extreme). Just look at A85 between Rivière-du-Loup and Saint Antonin and through Témiscouata: concrete median barrier’s a common sight (at least from what I remember).

[sonysnob]

If I were king for a day, this is what I'd do with North Bay. I would build the new freeway from the Highway 17 interchange in the south, to either just west or east of the O'Brien Street intersection to the north. I'd either leave the traffic signal in place at O'Brien, or build a grade separation, whatever tied in better with the long term plan at Algonquin Avenue. (Either Algonquin Avenue or the North Bay by-pass is going to need a significant grade revision in order to build an interchange and grade separation at that location).

I'd then look at widening whichever the busier left turn movement is from the North Bay Bypass to Algonquin Avenue to a two-lane left turn lane. Either the westbound to southbound left turn, or the eastbound to northbound left turn. Ideally, I'd widen both left turn lanes, but I don't think the intersection is wide enough to allow two opposing double left turns to oppose themselves on the same cycle. You could get around this by using an opposing leading/lagging left turn setup, similar to what has been done on the Hanlon, but I'm not sure that's an ideal solution here. By widening the left turn lanes from one to two lanes, you could accommodate more vehicles turning left per signal phase, and therefore reduce the amount of time the traffic signal shows a green left turn arrow each cycle. The less signal time that needs to be dedicated to turning traffic from the North By-pass, the more signal time that can be dedicated to other movements. I'd use that extra green time that I saved by shortening the left turn signal phases on the North Bay by-pass to extend the left turn signal phase from Algonquin Avenue Southbound to the Eastbound North Bay by-pass. That's the most critical movement (and the movement most prone to queuing) at this intersection.

The analysis of the traffic signal operation would be more complicated then that due to some other closely spaced signals on both Algonquin and Airport Road, and potentially at O'Brien to the east, but that'd be my quick and dirty cheap solution to improving that intersection. A traffic signal generally has a cycle length of somewhere around 90 seconds. At busier intersections you have to get creative at how best to accommodate all the traffic that approaches an intersection in each 90 second window.

Dengler, I know you'd prefer an interchange at this location, but I don't think there's going to be money for an interchange at Algonquin Avenue in the short term, and my solution improves the traffic signal operation for not that much cost.

If I were a betting man, aside from maybe, maybe an extension of the freeway through North Bay, I'd bet that exactly 0 new km of four lane highway will be constructed between Sault Ste. Marie and Renfrew over the next five years.

[Dengler Avenue]

I like your solution. Perhaps only North Bay Bypass Westbound to Algonquin Avenue Southbound needs dual left-turn lanes? There’s more stuff to the south than to the north.

I’m surprised that you would suggest building the freeway to bypass the current bypass first. For me, I’d trench the bypass at Algonquin Avenue already, and turn that intersection into a single-point interchange, but leave everything else as is for now. (If O’Brien Street’s considered too close to the interchange though, it should fly over.). At least that’s how Winnipeg does it (unless it’s a bad example to learn from.) Speed limit can be bumped up to 90 kph if appropriate.

Edit: Yea I think your solution’s still the cheapest.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’m also surprised that people are complacent with an arterial of AADT 22K littered with traffic lights.

I live in North Bay.

The bypass flows well enough. It is not unlike any major arterial road that limits access to cross streets at lights. In fact, it tends to be better, since the MTO limits business access to a few junctions. There's a total of 7 signals on Highway 17 and 3 on Highway 11 (including the one at 11 & 17).

The largest backups occur around Highway 63 North at afternoon rush hour as traffic queues to turn left from a high-capacity road (11/17) to a lower one (63). The acceleration lane from 63 South to 11/17 West could be lengthened as well.

Given the lack of problems, I'd say the MTO's money is better spent elsewhere.

[Dengler Avenue]

In that case, MTO need only twin 17 from MB/ON to Highway 71, 11-17 from Shabaqua Corners to Nipigon, and possibly the gap of Sudbury SW Bypass between City Road 55 and Highway 69, finish 400 extension, add a second left-turn lane from 11-17SE to 63NE (in addition to what sonysnob suggested), construct Timmins Bypass, lower the speed limit on 11 around Temagami to 80 kph with serious enforcement, (edit) realign 17 around Montreal River, and leave the rest as is then.

9 items in total for Northern Ontario

----
Extend 417 out to the CFB and the freeway 7 out to Perth, twin the 62 bridge from Belleville to Prince Edward Island (yes, that's an island county in Ontario, lol, in case anyone wonders), reconfigure 401/62 and 401/37 interchanges to eliminate weaving on top of widening from 4 to 6 lanes, reconstruct 401 outside of Napanee while widening, redo 401/"38" interchange in Kingston, and widen 401 to 6 lanes through the East Region. It'll be a surplus if QC's willing to widen its A20 from ON/QC to A20-A30 interchange. Since Legault's a suburbanist, it's now or never.

8 items in total (one of them a big one) for Eastern Ontario

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Widen 7-8 up to Stratford, construct Kitchener-Guelph Link, upgrade Hanlon Parkway, construct Morriston-Puslinch Bypass, convert the rest of 6 between Guelph and Hamilton into a freeway, widen 26 and bypass towns along the way, add passing lanes for 6 and for 10, twin 3 in Essex County, widen 401 from 4 to 6 lanes. That's all I can think of for Southwestern Ontario, excluding the Gordie Howe Bridge.

9 items in total (one of them a big one) for Southwestern Ontario

Edit: Add to the list Highway 24 Cambridge Bypass and widen it to 4 lanes between there and Brantford, making it 10 items.

----
Widen 11 from 4 to 6 lanes and get rid of RIRO configuration altogether, and bypass the 90-degree turn at Gravenhurst. Eliminate the at-grade intersections as deemed fit.
Upgrade the RIRO section of 35/115. Continue work to widen Lindsay Bypass. Extend the freeway 7 past Highway 28. Widen 401 from 4 to 6 lanes past Cobourg (Exit 474).

5 items in total (2 of them big ones)

----
GTHA's situation warrants a dedicated comment in the Ontario Highway thread.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

...construct Timmins Bypass....

Timmins bypass?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

Timmins bypass?

Sorry Highway 101* Timmins Bypass

At this point I'm just talking about Ontario highways in general.