Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

^ It's no joke, with all the relatively modern stadiums getting torn down in the US with alarming regularity, there's no reason why Halifax couldn't buy a bunch of surplus parts from a decommissioned stadium down there and save some $$$. The Georgia Dome was only 25 years old... I'm sure the seats and other random fixtures were probably still in good shape.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

Remember there was a rumor that the Atlantic Schooners (part 1) had the old scoreboard from the Patriots stored somewhere for the new stadium.
Maybe they can get some deals on used stadium parts. Atlanta's usually aren't that old

No doubt we should just start shipping all of atlantas "old" crap over to canada.

Turner field to Montreal

Georgia dome and Philips arena to Calgary

Toronto should call dibs on Mercedes-Benz Stadium when they are done with it in 2026.

I just read this from the Georgia domes wiki and it almost made me throw up

Renovations[edit]
In 2006, the Atlanta Falcons and the Georgia World Congress Center Authority announced a $300 million renovation to the Georgia Dome. The project was separated into two stages. The first stage, which took place before the 2007 NFL season, focused on updating the premium seating areas, including the creation of eight 'super-suites' as well as an owners' club.[12] In 2008, the exterior of the stadium was repainted, replacing the original teal and maroon color scheme with a red, black, and silver theme to match the Falcons' team colors; the stadium's original teal seats were replaced with red seats in the lower and upper levels and black seats in the middle level. The entrance gates and concourses were also renovated and updated before the 2008 football season.[13][14] In 2009, the video screens in both end zones were relocated to a new exterior monument sign on Northside Drive. The interior end zones each received a new and considerably wider High Definition video screen that significantly enhanced views of replays, as well as graphics and digital presentations. A new sound system was installed in the same year, replacing the previous system that was nearly 20 years old.

300 USD MILLION DOLLAR RENOVATION!!! Just to break ground on a new stadium 5 years later...That's unthinkable in this country. IGF will be 80 years old before Winnipeg looks at replacing it.

[esquire]

^ I wonder how much of that new gear they actually removed from the stadium before imploding it?

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I wonder how much of that new gear they actually removed from the stadium before imploding it?

looked pretty stripped down

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Turner Field was sold to Georgia State University and was retrofitted for their football team

[esquire]

^ Interesting, I didn't know that. Nice to see that they're keeping it around to serve another purpose.

[Oilkountry]

Phillips arena. Another large,modern and usable Georgia sports venue is also in the middle of a massive retrofit mostly paid for by the public (150M+ of 230M). No more wall of luxury boxes. I just don't see where a city even Atlanta's size gets this kind of cash.

Either way really nice renovation that will keep the NBA there till 2043.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by elly63

Why, why, why do people always say this. Who the hell, in Canada, would build a sports facility to be used 10 times a year? Is THF used 10 times a year?

I don't think there's a single, solitary economic argument in favour of building, what is essentially, a single-use stadium for football with taxpayer $. As we all know, there was significant controversy on the THF front in Hamilton but they pushed it through on the back of the PA Games. And the Kitty Cats are a Hamilton institution so there's that.

And when I speak about 'use', of course, I'm referring to major tenants/ sporting events, not high school football matches, beer league soccer and the like (The Vanier Cup, unfortunately, doesn't qualify). A 25,000-seat stadium is not a public service.

If the prospective owner wants to pay for it itself, fine. But to use taxpayer dollars to fund a football stadium in market that is a massive question mark, well, that just doesn't seem smart.

[Hackslack]

I argue that it's acceptable to use taxpayer dollars to help fund professional sports teams stadiums. Namely, football and hockey, are engrained in Canada's culture, and part of staying true to a country's culture means having to spend money on these venues.

Edit: meant to put "stadiums", not the teams themselves

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I argue that it's acceptable to use taxpayer dollars to help fund professional sports teams. Namely, football and hockey, are engrained in Canada's culture, and part of staying true to a country's culture means having to spend money on these venues.

It's ok to use the public purse to fund any venture that the majority of the citizenry want.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

I don't think there's a single, solitary economic argument in favour of building, what is essentially, a single-use stadium for football with taxpayer $. As we all know, there was significant controversy on the THF front in Hamilton but they pushed it through on the back of the PA Games. And the Kitty Cats are a Hamilton institution so there's that.

And when I speak about 'use', of course, I'm referring to major tenants/ sporting events, not high school football matches, beer league soccer and the like (The Vanier Cup, unfortunately, doesn't qualify). A 25,000-seat stadium is not a public service.

This is the biggest difference between taxpayer money being used for a stadium and taxpayer money being used for an arena. Not only do arenas fit into urban areas more nicely but they can also host multiple sports, concerts, tradeshows, and anything else indoors which provide for potential economic spinoff. Stadiums, although possible to host these same things, are held back by weather or are not ideal whatsoever.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Interesting, I didn't know that. Nice to see that they're keeping it around to serve another purpose.

I thought Turner Field was excellent when I went to a Braves game there a few years ago. Only in Atlanta would a stadium so fresh be deemed surplus.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is the biggest difference between taxpayer money being used for a stadium and taxpayer money being used for an arena. Not only do arenas fit into urban areas more nicely but they can also host multiple sports, concerts, tradeshows, and anything else indoors which provide for potential economic spinoff. Stadiums, although possible to host these same things, are held back by weather or are not ideal whatsoever.

I see the rationale for taxpayer funding for arenas as being much weaker... they are smaller and less expensive to build than stadiums, and arguably much more profitable given that you can operate them year-round.

Stadiums, on the other hand, rarely make economic sense on their own, especially when you don't have a MLB team playing in it to fill a substantial number of dates. I see them as a bit more of a civic amenity for large sports and cultural events, and I can accept governments paying for one every couple of generations on that account.

What I can't accept is government funding for frequent stadium replacements like the Atlanta scenario where perfectly functional venues get torn down before they've even fully lost the new venue smell, or funding for hyper-specific stadiums that can only be used for one purpose. If I were allowed to put rules in place, I'd say no government funding for stadiums unless they have an athletics track and the ability to host football and soccer, and frankly, baseball too. The only reason we got away from the perfectly functional 60s "cookie cutter" model was because greedy owners didn't want to share the venue with other teams, and in most cases were able to persuade governments to give them money or big breaks on building new facilities.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'd say no government funding for stadiums unless they have an athletics track and the ability to host football and soccer, and frankly, baseball too.

A track and the ability to configure for baseball are bad ideas. Putting fussy fans farther from the action and giving them another excuse to not show up is never good.

How many track events does Canada have where they need a 25k crowd? Not too many. Thank God Commonwealth? was the last large stadium built to have a track. A rectilinear field can accommodate many sports without including running events. Football, soccer, rugby, lacrosse, concerts are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. With community use included a stadium should be able to be booked much of the year and a bubble put up in the winter to book it even more.

Athletics should have their own dedicated facility.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I see the rationale for taxpayer funding for arenas as being much weaker... they are smaller and less expensive to build than stadiums, and arguably much more profitable given that you can operate them year-round.

Absolutely, which is why it isn't a difficult reach to have a municipality owned and operated facility which is leased for events. This would be ideal for medium-to-small size areas which aren't going to land the major league sports and don't have the raw size or business heft to have completely privately-financed arenas.

Originally Posted by esquire

Stadiums, on the other hand, rarely make economic sense on their own, especially when you don't have a MLB team playing in it to fill a substantial number of dates. I see them as a bit more of a civic amenity for large sports and cultural events, and I can accept governments paying for one every couple of generations on that account.

Stadiums are much more hit or miss. I find Canadian perception comes from, a lot of the time, American taxpayer abuse for funding of NFL & MLB stadiums. Very rarely are Canadian stadiums built to the same tune, excess, and overall greed that some of the professional franchise stadiums are built to the south of us, and even more rarely are Canadian stadiums so quickly replaced like some in the US (Atlanta has plenty of examples).

In saying that, it makes some sense for a federal government to invest in a national sports centre or stadium so long as the demand is there from the public for events and usage. Because Canada is a vast country with a vastly spreadout population, a central national stadium doesn't make as much sense as it does in, say, France or England. The standard Canadian cannot travel easily or cheaply on a whim to support the national team whenever they play in the country's largest centre. Canada's case for a national stadium by this measure is weak. However, Canada still does have national centres for sports which are used for centralized training of athletes which takes less financing to start up than a single large-scale stadium, and we have a good habit of continuing to use our Olympic infrastructure (in particular in Calgary) for sport development for future generations.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Stadiums are much more hit or miss. I find Canadian perception comes from, a lot of the time, American taxpayer abuse for funding of NFL & MLB stadiums. Very rarely are Canadian stadiums built to the same tune, excess, and overall greed that some of the professional franchise stadiums are built to the south of us, and even more rarely are Canadian stadiums so quickly replaced like some in the US (Atlanta has plenty of examples).

In saying that, it makes some sense for a federal government to invest in a national sports centre or stadium so long as the demand is there from the public for events and usage. However, Canada still does have national centres for sports which are used for centralized training of athletes which takes less financing to start up than a single large-scale stadium, and we have a good habit of continuing to use our Olympic infrastructure (in particular in Calgary) for sport development for future generations.

Yup

[Acajack]

Not saying that it's a slam dunk but I think some type of case could be made for the municipality in Halifax to lead a stadium construction project and even participate in it financially (but not pay for all of it of course).

A 25,000-seater would allow Halifax to pretty much corner the Maritimes market for large outdoor concerts in the summertime. I know that Moncton has in the past landed some pretty big concerts due in part to its more central hub location, but if there was a large permanent facility in Halifax that might be much less likely to happen - even virtually impossible.

Someone mentioned the Vanier Cup almost jokingly. Well, without saying it would be the permanent home that might be an event that Halifax might get on the rotation on every few years if there was a suitable stadium.

Halifax would also likely host the Grey Cup once in a blue moon.

I could also see Halifax hosting an outdoor hockey game (CHL?) at one point in this stadium.

Also Halifax is currently out of the running for anything international that Canada hosts because of the absence of a stadium. Moncton got to host FIFA women's world cup games in 2015, for example.

BTW, none of this is meant as a slag on Moncton.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A 25,000-seater would allow Halifax to pretty much corner the Maritimes market for large outdoor concerts in the summertime. I know that Moncton has in the past landed some pretty big concerts due in part to its more central hub location, but if there was a large permanent facility in Halifax that might be much less likely to happen - even virtually impossible.

We don't really know what a good entry-level size is for the market. We know what the size requirement is for the CFL but we don't know how reliably the Halifax market will fill that up (and at what price point). There's an 11K arena that is used pretty religiously and that's it. This is why I keep insisting that having a 7-10K stadium already in the market will give us a good idea of market flexibility and ceiling.

Prime concert dates for the stadiums are going to be through the summer when the stadium's presumed main tenant (CFL) will be playing. If the stadium is located outside of the city and more easily accessible for commuters it's going to limit the flexibility of shows (mostly geared towards boomers, similar to Magnetic Hill). Those Moncton concerts have all but dried up since the organizer passed on. What concert event is going to select a suburban stadium location over an urban arena location outside of a few select events?

Originally Posted by Acajack

Someone mentioned the Vanier Cup almost jokingly. Well, without saying it would be the permanent home that might be an event that Halifax might get on the rotation on every few years if there was a suitable stadium.

25K is probably too large for a Vanier Cup hosting ideal - 20K would be nice, I would assume, based on numbers from Hamilton, Quebec City, Montreal, and Toronto. Obviously Halifax could host it on a rotational basis.

Halifax could easily host the Uteck Bowl every second year in its new stadium.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Halifax would also likely host the Grey Cup once in a blue moon.

Once every six/eight years - maybe.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I could also see Halifax hosting an outdoor hockey game (CHL?) at one point in this stadium.

Possibly. We'll have to see how the Gatineau/Ottawa game goes at Lansdowne in a couple weeks. Shawinigan has proven they can fill a small stadium. Drummondville hosts one in a smaller stadium in the new year.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also Halifax is currently out of the running for anything international that Canada hosts because of the absence of a stadium. Moncton got to host FIFA women's world cup games in 2015, for example.

This is a more major upside, and there's no reason why both cities couldn't play host to smaller FIFA tournaments (U20/Women's/U18). These are once every decade, though.

My biggest concern is always going to be the stadium's location. Every other CFL stadium is located more-or-less in the city's built-up urban core (Winnipeg might be the sole exception). If Halifax were to build its stadium in Bayers Lake or Dartmouth Crossing it would sorely stick out as a suburban, rural-based stadium (ask the Senators how they fare with their arena in Kanata as compared to every other NHL arena in Canada). Again, a suburban stadium will limit ease of access for some, stretch transit and municipal servicing options, and be a standalone centre on its own. The Lansdowne comparisons are great and the retail aspect of Lansdowne is fantastic - but it's also located in a heavily built-up urban centre. Trying to emulate that would essentially be like emulating the Senators' Arena (which they're desperately shrinking and trying to move on from), and for which the retail node aspect never came. The arena is surrounded by car dealerships, signifying what is actually required to get to the arena in the first place.

If it's all private money they can do as they wish, but if it isn't I would be very weary. How much provincial/municipal funding is enough to make up for increased municipal costs, sprawl, and the occasional large event?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A 25,000-seater would allow Halifax to pretty much corner the Maritimes market for large outdoor concerts in the summertime. I know that Moncton has in the past landed some pretty big concerts due in part to its more central hub location, but if there was a large permanent facility in Halifax that might be much less likely to happen - even virtually impossible.

Actually a Halifax stadium wouldn't put much of a dent in any large scale events Moncton would want to go for. They have the "Pope site" for the uber large concerts and they've also had concerts at the beach. What may have hurt Moncton more than anything was the premature death (cancer) of a relatively young go-getting city manager who went out and helped bring those events to Moncton.

[Acajack]

I still don't think that, by global standards, a stadium seating at least 20,000 people would be that much of an extravagance at all for a city like Halifax.

If you look around the world, in Australia and NZ any city of this size (and many smaller ones) have stadiums of that capacity or larger.

OK so they have a climate that allows them to use a stadium for more months of the year. Fair enough.

So looking at the Nordics all of the cities I found that are Halifax's size have stadiums that seat in the 18,000 range

Halifax has Huskies Stadium at SMU. 5000 capacity?

I won't even compare to the U.S. of course for reasons we all know.

[elly63]

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