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  #861  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 5:30 PM
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I know in California, they've turned public parking lots into a homeless shelters for those that live in their cars. I'm willing to bet there are more people in Hamilton sleeping in their cars than in tents. This morning (7am) I saw one guy still sleeping in the driver's seat parked in Westdale. I feel sorry for these folks because they have a car, probably doing uber eats/skip the dishes, etc., to make extra money, but it just isn't enough to pay the rent and live.

I would like to see shelters for those living in their cars. They are less likely to be on drugs or have mental health issues; they are just struggling in this economy.

The parking lot in California for example is fenced off, with a security guard monitoring the site and the front entrance. A common area for people to eat is inside the parking lot, and bathrooms with showers are provided. I believe at 9 am, everyone has to leave the parking lot and is allowed to return at 7 pm.
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  #862  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
I know in California, they've turned public parking lots into a homeless shelters for those that live in their cars. I'm willing to bet there are more people in Hamilton sleeping in their cars than in tents. This morning (7am) I saw one guy still sleeping in the driver's seat parked in Westdale. I feel sorry for these folks because they have a car, probably doing uber eats/skip the dishes, etc., to make extra money, but it just isn't enough to pay the rent and live.

I would like to see shelters for those living in their cars. They are less likely to be on drugs or have mental health issues; they are just struggling in this economy.

The parking lot in California for example is fenced off, with a security guard monitoring the site and the front entrance. A common area for people to eat is inside the parking lot, and bathrooms with showers are provided. I believe at 9 am, everyone has to leave the parking lot and is allowed to return at 7 pm.
99.9% of homeless people are not homeless because of the economic conditions. They are homeless because of hardcore substance abuse. Pretending otherwise will not help those who need it.

Best we can do is enforce the bylaw, arrest those who are misbehaving, and provide drug addiction treatment (that does not mean safe injection and supply sites).
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  #863  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 5:51 PM
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No, no stupid council vanity projects so they can pat themselves on the back (Nann & Kroetsch) and act like they are doing something while ignoring their tax base.
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  #864  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 7:18 PM
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The first spot for legal encampments? Councillors’ neighbourhoods
With council on eve of sanctioning tent cities, The Spec’s Scott Radley suggests municipal leaders step up to the plate when it comes to location.


Bravo Scott!!
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  #865  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 8:02 PM
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Very surprising to see something like that out of The Spec today. Can't wait to see what Kroetsch/Nann have to say about that.
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  #866  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 9:00 PM
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I bet Nann is frothing from her mouth to let them completely take over Ward 3.
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  #867  
Old Posted May 17, 2023, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
99.9% of homeless people are not homeless because of the economic conditions. They are homeless because of hardcore substance abuse. Pretending otherwise will not help those who need it.
Good point, it's probably just a coincidence that the homelessness has skyrocketed as rent has. Brilliant reasoning.
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  #868  
Old Posted May 17, 2023, 2:08 AM
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Good point, it's probably just a coincidence that the homelessness has skyrocketed as rent has. Brilliant reasoning.
It has skyrocketed because of relaxed public camping laws and an increase in the drug supply (fentanyl). You genuinely believe these people would be able to work and pay rent?
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  #869  
Old Posted May 17, 2023, 4:20 PM
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FYI: Council is currently meeting to discuss revisions to the encampment policy.

Link to Staff report: https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363838
Link to presentation to Council regarding the proposed revised encampment protocol: https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363842
Link to Appendix A (the protocol itself): https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363839
Link to Appendix B (report on stakeholder engagement for drafting the protocol): https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363840
Link to Appendix C (Comparison of proposed protocol vs current policy): https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=363841

Presentation excerpt comparing (at an extraordinarily high level) current vs proposed encampment protocol:

Source

From the report:
Quote:
Proposed Encampment Protocol – Key Elements

In developing the protocol, City staff also reviewed protocols of other municipalities to identify areas of alignment, strategies, and other approaches to consider, as well as principles within ‘A National Protocol for Homeless Encampments in Canada’ report. The application of these approaches, strategies, and principles are outlined in the sections below, along with the rationale for each element.

1. Application of the Vulnerability-Index Service Prioritization Decision Assistance Tool

One of the most consistently raised concerns from the community stakeholders was regarding the use of the Vulnerability-Index Service Prioritization Decision Assistance Tool as a decision-making tool regarding whether someone living unsheltered would be able to stay in situ or need to move to a new space as based upon their level of acuity. Stakeholders suggested that this led to unsheltered individuals aiming to score a higher acuity score on the Vulnerability-Index Service Prioritization Decision Assistance Tool to ensure they could stay in their current location while awaiting housing.

To address these concerns, under the proposed Protocol, the Vulnerability-Index Service Prioritization Decision Assistance Tool would be used to support conversations where staff learn about an individual’s housing situation, needs, and strengths to help build a plan to achieve stable housing. There would be no requirement for anyone who is living in an encampment to complete the Vulnerability-Index Service Prioritization Decision Assistance Tool and it would have no bearing on whether they are able to stay in a particular location or for a specific duration of time.

2. Size of an Encampment and Distance between Encampments

From the discussions amongst the community stakeholders as well as with City staff involved in providing frontline support, there were several different ideas shared regarding the appropriate number of tents to be permitted within a confined area. Broadly, the community stakeholders shared suggestions ranging from 5-10 tents, as well as “no limit” to the number of tents permitted in one area. Staff were consistent that a maximum number is most appropriate and that it is a common approach among other municipalities. The Proposed Encampment Protocol would set a limit of 5 tents which is consistent with the previous encampment protocol.

A limit of five tents per cluster provides for sheltering needs while reducing potential noise complaints, complaints about garbage and debris, conflict within encampments, and between encampments and the public. Parks section staff have also identified significant costs associated with the cleaning and maintenance of larger, entrenched encampment sites, which commonly result in damage to the parkland, and require more significant grass and ground remediation. Additionally, larger tent communities can be attractive locations for those wanting to engage in criminality. One of the notes of success from the previous encampment protocols was avoiding entrenched encampments.

The Proposed Protocol also recommends a 50-metre distance requirement between encampment sites which again allows sheltering while preserving opens spaces for public use and helping to ensure that there is no overlap between tent clusters that become a single larger cluster of tents. Set-back requirements are very common in municipal By-laws and are used by other municipalities when it comes to encampment By-laws.

3. Garbage and Debris

The proliferation of debris and garbage at encampment sites, particularly larger sites, is one of the most common complaints from the public. To address this concern, the Proposed Protocol recommends that each tent would be required to maintain all its belongings within a 3-metre-by-3-metre area, for a total of 9-metres-squared. When five tents are within one encampment cluster, the total area for the five tents will not be able to exceed 45-metres-squared. Municipal Law Enforcement Officers would be used to identify sites that do not meet the criteria, and anything that is not located within the allotted personal space area would be raised with occupants of adjacent tents if located and failing response would be subject to immediate removal from City staff. This approach is consistent with those adopted in other jurisdictions.

4. Proximity to Schools, Child Care Centres, Playgrounds, Pools, and Waterparks

Given the vulnerability of the population that accesses schools, childcare centres, playgrounds (including spray pads), and pools and/or waterparks, the Proposed Protocol includes a requirement to be 50-metres away from these sites when setting up a tent. This is consistent with the previous protocol and received broad agreement from the community stakeholders and staff.

5. Civic Museums, City Heritage Facilities, and Sites with an Environmental or Heritage
Designation

A limit of 5-metres from any site with an environmental or heritage designation is included in the Proposed Protocol to ensure that protected sites are not impacted by camping. Often sites with an environmental or heritage designation cannot be remediated after damage or would require significant financial costs. The Proposed Protocol would also not permit encampments within the grounds of a City civic museum or heritage facility, as these grounds are typically used as part of the public programming area for these facilities.

6. Protection of Recreational Assets for Public Use

Other prohibited areas proposed in the Proposed Protocol include camping on or up against any sports fields, skateboard parks, fitness amenities, golf courses, baseball diamonds, soccer pitches, tennis courts, or any other sports or multi-use courts, as well as stadiums, dugouts, stages, and bleachers. These are City recreational assets that are heavily utilized by children and youth, especially during the summer months. In balancing the recreational needs of the public, and to ensure the appropriate use of the City’s public assets, these spaces need to be available for ongoing use.

7. Highways, Pathways, Bridges, Sidewalks, Publicly owned Parking Lots, Entrances, Exits, Fire Routes, and Accessibility

Entrances To ensure highways, sidewalks, entrances and exits, and fire routes remain unencumbered by tents and are accessible to the public, city staff involved in snow removal, and frontline emergency responders, the Proposed Protocol proposes that individuals would be prohibited from setting up tents or abodes in these areas. There are significant health and safety concerns associated with tenting in these locations for both individuals living in encampments as well as the public.

8. Proximity to Beaches, Ponds, Lakes, and Docks

The Proposed Protocol would prohibit erecting a tent near a beach, pond, lake, or dock as these areas present a concerning level of risk for the individual tenting, as well as other members of the public who choose to access a particular location and given the concern of potential disruption to wildlife habitat. A tent erected near a body of water, as well as potential garbage and debris surrounding the site may also present as obstructions to avoid and/or tripping hazards that increase the potential for someone to fall into a nearby body of water.

9. Cemeteries

Under the Proposed Protocol, tents would be prohibited in cemeteries because of the restrictions on use of the lands through the Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act, 2002, and oversight by the Burial Authority of Ontario.

10. Distance from Private Property

In the past there have been tents erected directly adjacent to, or attached to fences and other private property, leading to complaints from property owners, as well as health and safety issues, such as occurred with a propane explosion, as well as an increase in garbage and debris. The Proposed Protocol proposes a setback requirement of 5 metres from any private property line.

11. Hazardous Areas

All areas that are susceptible to flooding, erosion, slope instability, or other environmental hazards would be prohibited from camping to protect the health and safety of individuals.

12. Abandoned Sites and a Defined Clean-up and Maintenance Process

The community stakeholders shared experiences of individuals living in encampments having their items cleaned up without their consent, leading to negative outcomes and frustration. The community stakeholders also stressed the importance of individuals living in encampments being able to maintain documentation in order to apply to programs for social assistance and housing, as well as to receive medical care.

To balance the needs of individuals living in encampments, and community concerns regarding debris and garbage, the City has developed operational policies to address sites that are believed to be abandoned. The Proposed Protocol includes operational policies that would be followed prior to deeming an encampment abandoned and to ensure that items are only discarded after significant scrutiny has been applied to the active nature of a site, in order to limit the impacts on people who are living in encampments.

13. Campfire and Barbecue Use

As per Bylaw 01-219, Section 14 denotes expectations associated with use of campfires and barbecues, while in any park, no person shall, unless expressly authorized by permit or in a permitted area, designated by posted signs;
a) light, build or stoke an open fire or bonfire or move, alter, or expand authorized fire pit locations;
b) use any solid, liquid or gas fuelled portable barbecue, and, under no circumstances shall the fuel tank, cylinder or container for use with a liquid or gasfuelled barbecue exceed twenty (20) pounds capacity.
c) use fuel other than charcoal or briquettes in any stationary barbeque; or,
d) leave a barbecue or fire unattended without first extinguishing the barbecue or fire and ensuring that any remaining embers, coals, ashes or other residue, are fully extinguished and cold.

These items have frequently been the cause of fires and/or other safety concerns to individuals living in encampments and others nearby. As such, individuals who are not in compliance with the above By-law would be subject to the removal of items.

Sanctioned Encampments:

The current focus within the Proposed Protocol is on areas where encampments would not be permitted and does not include sanctioned sites. This model makes it the responsibility of encamped individuals to be informed of where they may set up a tent to be in compliance with the protocol. The protocol outlines communication that will be in place to ensure a shared understanding among the community and unsheltered individuals. However, engagement with stakeholders consistently recommended several sanctioned sites be identified and implemented. It was recommended by the community stakeholders that Council consider a sanctioned encampment model. This approach is supported by City Staff and Hamilton Police Services. If this direction is supported by Council, city staff would work on the development of sanctioned site model during the period of public input and implementation of the Proposed Protocol. Staff would conduct a scan of jurisdictions with sanctioned sites, understand operating models, parameters, and site identification processes, and bring back options to Council. A new encampment protocol could be implemented independently, based on restricted locations, and expanded to include sanctioned encampment sites once model and site(s) are approved by Council.

Additional Considerations and Concerns

As noted above, the Proposed Encampment Protocol attached as Appendix “A” to Report (HSC20038(f)/PED21188(c)) was informed by the Protocol Development
Sessions that were held in March 2023 with the identified community stakeholders. During staff’s analysis and development of the Proposed Protocol, and as the
encampment response team has worked together to address constituent complaints and respond to the needs of unsheltered individuals and encampment related issues since being re-established in February 2023, additional questions, concerns, and considerations have been raised by stakeholders, staff, councillors and members of the broader community.

Tent Limits: Staff have identified potential difficulties in enforcing a five-tent limit, particularly in how to assess which tent is the sixth to enter onto a site. The preferred approach from Municipal Law Enforcement would be to have one or more parties voluntarily move to a new site to ensure the site maintains its
compliance. If this is not achievable, Municipal Law Enforcement would need to provide compliance notices to all tents located within a cluster, requiring all parties to leave the site.

Tent Clusters: Staff have identified potential concerns regarding the 50-metre distance separation between encampment sites recommended in the Proposed Protocol, as it could allow for multiple five-tent encampments within larger parks.

Special Events: Concerns have been expressed regarding allowing camping within areas which have been designated as special event area(s), in which a permit has been issued for a special event or festival by the City. It was suggested that these areas be cleared for the preceding five days prior to, and including the event, which would end on expiry of the permit, however such a restriction would be a challenge to enforce.

Leniency Compared with other Jurisdictions: Some stakeholders have expressed concern that the Proposed Encampment Protocol is more lenient than other
jurisdictions, which could create a risk of entrenched encampments and Hamilton experiencing a potential influx of unsheltered individuals.

Period of Public Input: It has been identified that the stakeholders engaged during the protocol development sessions do not represent all perspectives on the City’s encampment response, and the opportunity for public comment from the broader community is a reasonable and important step in finalizing the protocol.

Areas for Further Work and Additional Consideration

During the encampment development protocol sessions, the following areas were also identified by the community stakeholders as being needed to ensure a human-rights approach to encampments. These areas could be pursued simultaneous to developing a final encampment protocol, or subsequent to Council approving a new protocol. These areas are further described in the attached as Appendix “C” to Report (HSC20038(f)/PED21188(c)) and are in alignment with a rights-based approach to encampment response as highlighted in ‘A National Protocol for Homeless Encampments in Canada’.

1. Accessibility of Washrooms, Showers, and Clean Drinking Water
2. Peer Supports and Involvement of People with Lived and Living Experience
3. Indigenous-led Outreach and Partnerships
Source
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  #870  
Old Posted May 17, 2023, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
99.9% of homeless people are not homeless because of the economic conditions. They are homeless because of hardcore substance abuse.
Got any credible sources to back that statement up? I always seeing you make that statement and now I'd like to see if you can back it up.
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  #871  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by StEC View Post
Got any credible sources to back that statement up? I always seeing you make that statement and now I'd like to see if you can back it up.
Are you serious? Have you seen these encampments?
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  #872  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 4:06 AM
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This just feels like an imminent disaster.. why can't we put these people in actual buildings with beds with someone to supervise it?
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  #873  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
Are you serious? Have you seen these encampments?
That is your source? You realize homeless people (these are people by the way) are sleeping in their cars on side streets all over this city right? Couch surfing wherever they can and yes maybe sleeping in tents. Many of these people have part & full time jobs and probably work harder than us just to survive. To say 99.9% of all homeless are hardcore drug users and that's the reason they are homeless is absolutely ridiculous! Your complete lake of empathy and outright hatred for the unhoused is fucking disgusting!

Again do you have a "CREDIBLE SOURCE" to back up your statement? I have a credible source from the Canadian government that shits all over what you toss around as fact. https://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/homeles...-rapports/addiction-toxicomanie-eng.html and this was from 2018 before the housing crisis. Home/rent prices would have a much greater impact if studied today. Funny thing... just around 25% of homelessness is caused due to substance abuse a far cry from your 99.9%. Next most popular reasons are housing costs and mental health. A quick google search finds many other studies even from the USA that have similar results.
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  #874  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 10:55 AM
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Where are all the encampments in Halton and Niagara?

or west Hamilton or Ancaster? Oakville?

A lot of social services are being abused by out of towners without any pushback from the city.

No problem...just raise my taxes.🖕
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  #875  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by StEC View Post
That is your source? You realize homeless people (these are people by the way) are sleeping in their cars on side streets all over this city right? Couch surfing wherever they can and yes maybe sleeping in tents. Many of these people have part & full time jobs and probably work harder than us just to survive. To say 99.9% of all homeless are hardcore drug users and that's the reason they are homeless is absolutely ridiculous! Your complete lake of empathy and outright hatred for the unhoused is fucking disgusting!

Again do you have a "CREDIBLE SOURCE" to back up your statement? I have a credible source from the Canadian government that shits all over what you toss around as fact. https://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/homeles...-rapports/addiction-toxicomanie-eng.html and this was from 2018 before the housing crisis. Home/rent prices would have a much greater impact if studied today. Funny thing... just around 25% of homelessness is caused due to substance abuse a far cry from your 99.9%. Next most popular reasons are housing costs and mental health. A quick google search finds many other studies even from the USA that have similar results.
lol dude I don't hate homeless people. Why are you always saying that?

I just think ignoring the root cause of the homeless issue (destructive hard drugs), isn't helping anyone. No reduction in the cost of housing is going to get a hardcore drug addict back on his feet. They actively choose to do drugs over anything else in their life. Only treatment and enforcement of the laws will. Sure, high rent certainly doesn't help the situation, but ultimately most of these people are on the street because they went down a dark path of addiction and it ruined their lives. Plain and simple.

I can tell you're quite passionate about the issue. I think it might be misguided though.
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  #876  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 12:07 PM
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lol dude I don't hate homeless people. Why are you always saying that?

I just think ignoring the root cause of the homeless issue (destructive hard drugs), isn't helping anyone. No reduction in the cost of housing is going to get a hardcore drug addict back on his feet. They actively choose to do drugs over anything else in their life. Only treatment and enforcement of the laws will. Sure, high rent certainly doesn't help the situation, but ultimately most of these people are on the street because they went down a dark path of addiction and it ruined their lives. Plain and simple.

I can tell you're quite passionate about the issue. I think it might be misguided though.
Stec and ritsman are firmly in the Kroetsch camp and anything less than providing free fentanyl to homeless addicts is a human rights violation.

Not actually but they’re the type that think calling the homeless “unhoused” makes a difference. They’re all words and no action.
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  #877  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 1:05 PM
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Our idiot employees ( council and staff) are at it again.

They are backing so called backyard suites.

There is one going in several doors down from a relatives home on the mountain. Clstfk doesnt begin to describe this nonsense. I feel for the folks on either side. Essentially an oversized garage, built as a home, in the backyard.

Completely destroys the character of the neighbourhood.

One thing for certain, I doubt we see these backyard suites next to our employees homes.
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  #878  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Fruitloops View Post
Our idiot employees ( council and staff) are at it again.

They are backing so called backyard suites.

There is one going in several doors down from a relatives home on the mountain. Clstfk doesnt begin to describe this nonsense. I feel for the folks on either side. Essentially an oversized garage, built as a home, in the backyard.

Completely destroys the character of the neighbourhood.

One thing for certain, I doubt we see these backyard suites next to our employees homes.
LOL this forum is becoming more NIMBY then my neighbourhood group.

One of the easiest ways to make a dent in (not completely solve) but significantly help the housing crisis and homelessness is to build more homes. This needs to happen everywhere, basement apartments, 2nd, 3rd, 4th units, secondary and additional dwelling units, infill apartments, 30+ storey buildings in the core and on major corridors, etc.

Just because you live in a neighbourhood doesn't make you the judge of what it's "character" is. Neighbourhoods evolve and change, they don't have a static character. For all the complaining in this forum about homelessness, it's ironic that many of you also don't want to build the housing necessary to fix this.

It's also incorrect to correlate the root cause of homelessness with drugs, or drugs with homelessness. Many people turn to substances and vices when other fundamental aspects of their life (housing, relationships, etc) aren't providing what they need, but in turn many people end up homeless because of relationships, substances etc. They're tied together, but the outcomes significantly improve when even one of those core needs is provided for.
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  #879  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitloops View Post
Our idiot employees ( council and staff) are at it again.

They are backing so called backyard suites.

There is one going in several doors down from a relatives home on the mountain. Clstfk doesnt begin to describe this nonsense. I feel for the folks on either side. Essentially an oversized garage, built as a home, in the backyard.

Completely destroys the character of the neighbourhood.

One thing for certain, I doubt we see these backyard suites next to our employees homes.
Is this more important than improving access to affordable housing
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  #880  
Old Posted May 18, 2023, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitloops View Post
Our idiot employees ( council and staff) are at it again.

They are backing so called backyard suites.

There is one going in several doors down from a relatives home on the mountain. Clstfk doesnt begin to describe this nonsense. I feel for the folks on either side. Essentially an oversized garage, built as a home, in the backyard.

Completely destroys the character of the neighbourhood.

One thing for certain, I doubt we see these backyard suites next to our employees homes.
An example from Vancouver of one of those dastardly neighbourhood character-destroying laneway homes. Just look at it smugly destroying the character of one of the wealthiest neighbourhoods in the city. You don't have to worry about the City employees, though. They can't afford to live next door.

Source

Ugh. I'm going to be sick. It's a shame that these are descending upon Hamilton (and the rest of the province, since it is provincial law that allows them) like a plague of locusts. Just terrible.

Source

Oh lord, another abomination ruining the neighbourhood with its faux craftsman architecture.

Source

Oh come on! Now they're dragging solar panels into this bacchanalia? Hide your children. Sedate the elderly. Beg your gods for forgiveness.

Source

I'll leave it there because there are more than 4,500 of these approved and built to date in the City of Vancouver alone. Suffice it to say, they've ruined Vancouver's property values. It's an undesirable shithole now. The city's defining neighbourhood characteristic is laneway house surrounded by shell-shocked neighbours with thousand-yard stares. Hamilton is doomed.
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