Gas Prices

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't most people like to park in the shade, though?

The top trim model of the Toyota Prius had (has?) a small solar panel whose purpose is to run the HVAC fan when the car is turned off. It takes very little power to do this - it's not A/C but it's enough to keep exchanging the air in the car so it doesn't end up like an oven when it's been parked in the sun all day long. And of course if there's no sun to provide power then it's not really needed anyway.

I've always thought that it was a brilliant idea and wondered why nobody else seems to offer that option.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't most people like to park in the shade, though?



I do agree somewhat with the apartment argument - the average Tesla needs about ten solar panels, and one roof isn't going to fit ten panels for every resident. Unless some would be drilled into the south wall?

Sure a condo will never be able to supply enough power for it's own use via solar, nevermind charging EVs. But a SFH south of the fraser could easily power it's own needs and contribute to the grid.

But again, is that the best use of investment dollars to generate power in our climate? Likely not.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The top trim model of the Toyota Prius had (has?) a small solar panel whose purpose is to run the HVAC fan when the car is turned off. It takes very little power to do this - it's not A/C but it's enough to keep exchanging the air in the car so it doesn't end up like an oven when it's been parked in the sun all day long. And of course if there's no sun to provide power then it's not really needed anyway.

I've always thought that it was a brilliant idea and wondered why nobody else seems to offer that option.

Tesla has full climate control, of course. You can have it run the AC compressor, or just blow some ambient air inside.

Every PHEV should offer it though, especially while charging.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Tesla has full climate control, of course. You can have it run the AC compressor, or just blow some ambient air inside.

Every PHEV should offer it though, especially while charging.

The point is that a small solar panel is enough to keep the fan running so that the cabin stays close to ambient temperature while parked without needing to use up any battery or be plugged in.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sure a condo will never be able to supply enough power for it's own use via solar, nevermind charging EVs. But a SFH south of the fraser could easily power it's own needs and contribute to the grid.

But again, is that the best use of investment dollars to generate power in our climate? Likely not.

I don't get your resistance to this idea. Car makers have extremely efficient manufacturing techniques and can probably install solar panels (per watt) on their vehicles a lot cheaper than home owners installing them on their houses. Even if you do have solar panels on your house, why not extend that clean and cheap form of energy even further? This is an excellent way to deploy solar power on a mass scale.

Somebody do the math. Even if we had 50% of the cars in the world with solar, that would be a huge amount of electricity produced practically out of thin air.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

I don't get your resistance to this idea. Car makers have extremely efficient manufacturing techniques and can probably install solar panels (per watt) on their vehicles a lot cheaper than home owners installing them on their houses. Even if you do have solar panels on your house, why not extend that clean and cheap form of energy even further? This is an excellent way to deploy solar power on a mass scale.

Somebody do the math. Even if we had 50% of the cars in the world with solar, that would be a huge amount of electricity produced practically out of thin air.

I'm just trying to inject some reality into this discussion. If Toyota can build it with a good profit margin and there's a payoff for customers, all the power to them. I just don't see the math working.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm just trying to inject some reality into this discussion. If Toyota can build it with a good profit margin and there's a payoff for customers, all the power to them. I just don't see the math working.

AFAIK, when Toyota added the solar cells to the Prius, they could not connect the panels to the car's electric system to recharge the batteries without issues. The problem from what I could remember was that if the solar panels were connected to the batteries, it created a sort of a Faraday cage, causing problems with the car's radio system. Furthermore, they could only do it for part of the roof, otherwise the car would flunk North American roll over crash protection testing.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

AFAIK, when Toyota added the solar cells to the Prius, they could not connect the panels to the car's electric system to recharge the batteries without issues. The problem from what I could remember was that if the solar panels were connected to the batteries, it created a sort of a Faraday cage, causing problems with the car's radio system.

I think the bigger problem is that the area of a car roof just wasn't sufficient to hold enough solar cells to produce a meaningful amount of power to charge a traction battery. That's why they used the panel to power the fan - it doesn't take very much power to run and it does something quite useful.

The state of solar cells has advanced and their price has come down, which alters the equation a bit. But large shore-based solar arrays that feed a charging station (potentially using batteries to accumulate and store the generated power) are still a far more realistic way to do it. BCIT has such a test system installed at its BCIT campus.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Another thought as pointed out by Adam Stirling; What's likely going to happen is that the BCUC will find a price discrepancy it cannot explain because it is forbidden to investigate any provincial policy that affects the price of fuel and that uncertainty will therefore be used for political propaganda by the NDP to further mislead the public.

As most of the gas companies already realize that this is in reality, a propaganda exercise by the Horgan government, using the power of the state to harass them, they won't roll over and make it easy for the Horgan government to do so (hence the lack of cooperation). And the last time the Horgan government did this, the federal government had to step in and shell out $4.5 billion dollars in taxpayer's money to clean up the mess made by the province to buy out the pipeline after Kinder Morgan was sufficiently harassed by the BC government to give up and leave.

Furthermore; when does someone in the BC NDP cabinet realize that compelling fuel suppliers to reveal their profit margins publicly would actually create the situation that the BC NDP is claiming is happening?

Making such information public means it would allow competitors to the companies that have revealed their profit margins to come in and undercut them, then proceed to corner the market, and then abuse their market dominance, thus creating the price fixing situation the BC NDP is claiming is happening.

Seems like this post rings true; the BCUC did exactly say this in their report:

https://www.bcuc.com/Documents/Proceedin...iry-Gasoline-Diesel-Report-FINAL-web.pdf

https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/08/30/bcuc-finds-no-evidence-of-collusion-in-gas-price-inquiry/

No evidence of collusion, yes, there is a 13 cent price difference that can't be explained as per the scope of the report, and the BC NDP are still blaming gas companies.

[WarrenC12]

Who else would be to blame?

Who is making that extra 13 cents?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm just trying to inject some reality into this discussion. If Toyota can build it with a good profit margin and there's a payoff for customers, all the power to them. I just don't see the math working.

Maybe more feasible to cut a hole in the floorboard and make it Flinstones powered cars.

[SpongeG]

Passed Petro Canada on Broadway at clark and gas was 136.9 after 9 pm as I was on the Bline transfering to the m-line, the expansion can't come quick enough when trying to get home from the airport. At the Esso on North Road it is 149.9

[libtard]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Who else would be to blame?

Who is making that extra 13 cents?

The government

You have to admit WestCoastEcho was bang on with his prediction

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Who else would be to blame?

Who is making that extra 13 cents?

Notice how the BCUC is admitting that there's no evidence that gas companies are massively profiting over the situation; at best, they can say the potential is there, but there's no evidence that they actually are.

The press release shouldn’t have to say “potentially” after an inquiry. Wasn’t the inquiry supposed to determine if they were colluding to reap windfall profits?

Hint: they weren’t. No evidence of collusion. They can’t even tell if they made more money when the price was up. They have to use “potentially” in terms of profits in their press release because they don’t know how much of (if any) of that 13 cents per litre actually went to oil companies, and thus had to hedge their bets even though the evidence and the odds of the situation are non-existent.

The best they can spin this is *maybe* some of that small proportion did. That’s it.

You will also note from that press release that BC government was and continues to be concerned with the flow of refined fuels coming down Trans Mountain; this is the real problem here.

The report goes into great length about how the bottleneck is the real issue, and that any arguments made by any interveners that pipeline capacity isn't an issue is systematically destroyed, with their arguments assigned no value; you think any rational government will look at the problem and realize that opposing expansion of a piece of infrastructure that's the cause of a massive bottleneck, costing the government and it's citizens millions of dollars annually is extremely bad public policy. And yet they are.

[milomilo]

How cute, the report confirms the obvious.

Who cares if the companies are profiting anyway? We live in a capitalist country, if you put in constraints to supply then the price will respond to that.

The report does say that relatively more crude is being sent through the pipeline in recent times compared to refined products - I thought there was no demand for Albertan crude? Again though, we live in a capitalist country, the Albertan oil companies do not exist to serve BC, only to make money. If they can make more money sending crude through the pipe than refined, the high prices that causes in BC is irrelevant to them.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Notice how the BCUC is admitting that there's no evidence that gas companies are massively profiting over the situation; at best, they can say the potential is there, but there's no evidence that they actually are.

The press release shouldn’t have to say “potentially” after an inquiry. Wasn’t the inquiry supposed to determine if they were colluding to reap windfall profits?

Hint: they weren’t. No evidence of collusion. They can’t even tell if they made more money when the price was up. They have to use “potentially” in terms of profits in their press release because they don’t know how much of (if any) of that 13 cents per litre actually went to oil companies, and thus had to hedge their bets even though the evidence and the odds of the situation are non-existent.

The best they can spin this is *maybe* some of that small proportion did. That’s it.

You will also note from that press release that BC government was and continues to be concerned with the flow of refined fuels coming down Trans Mountain; this is the real problem here.

The report goes into great length about how the bottleneck is the real issue, and that any arguments made by any interveners that pipeline capacity isn't an issue is systematically destroyed, with their arguments assigned no value; you think any rational government will look at the problem and realize that opposing expansion of a piece of infrastructure that's the cause of a massive bottleneck, costing the government and it's citizens millions of dollars annually is extremely bad public policy. And yet they are.

The details aren't there because the oil companies wouldn't tell BCUC any of their internal margins, markups, and so on.

The 13 cents comes after accounting for BC fuel blend, currency, etc.

Remember that the pipeline supplies Cherry Point, so in the PNW we're all on the same oil and hence refined supply.

I'm not saying the companies can't gouge the hell out of the consumer, that's the free market and supply/demand.

With respect to capacity and demand for crude, I think you made the argument that BC gas supply is secondary. If more money can be made shipping oil to China, BC gas supply (and prices) can go higher than ever. That, combined with the environmental risk, and you can see why many people in BC don't see any benefit to TMX. In fact it's more risk than anything.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The details aren't there because the oil companies wouldn't tell BCUC any of their internal margins, markups, and so on.

The 13 cents comes after accounting for BC fuel blend, currency, etc.

Remember that the pipeline supplies Cherry Point, so in the PNW we're all on the same oil and hence refined supply.

I'm not saying the companies can't gouge the hell out of the consumer, that's the free market and supply/demand.

With respect to capacity and demand for crude, I think you made the argument that BC gas supply is secondary. If more money can be made shipping oil to China, BC gas supply (and prices) can go higher than ever. That, combined with the environmental risk, and you can see why many people in BC don't see any benefit to TMX. In fact it's more risk than anything.

Initially, they didn't. Once the BCUC tightened its privacy protocols, documents were produced, and for the BCUC, it became as clear as daylight that the oil companies weren't pocketing the difference in extra profit.

The BC government forbade the BCUC from investigating provincial policy for a reason. We don’t know for sure what it was, but it made it impossible to even know if the oil companies were getting the cash.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Initially, they didn't. Once the BCUC tightened its privacy protocols, documents were produced, and for the BCUC, it became as clear as daylight that the oil companies weren't pocketing the difference in extra profit.

The BC government forbade the BCUC from investigating provincial policy for a reason. We don’t know for sure what it was, but it made it impossible to even know if the oil companies were getting the cash.

The taxes applied to BC gas are extremely transparent. There are stickers on every pump.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The details aren't there because the oil companies wouldn't tell BCUC any of their internal margins, markups, and so on.

The 13 cents comes after accounting for BC fuel blend, currency, etc.

Remember that the pipeline supplies Cherry Point, so in the PNW we're all on the same oil and hence refined supply.

I'm not saying the companies can't gouge the hell out of the consumer, that's the free market and supply/demand.

With respect to capacity and demand for crude, I think you made the argument that BC gas supply is secondary. If more money can be made shipping oil to China, BC gas supply (and prices) can go higher than ever. That, combined with the environmental risk, and you can see why many people in BC don't see any benefit to TMX. In fact it's more risk than anything.

Don't complain about the price then? (Not you, but the population).

For whatever reasons, that report shows that with strained pipeline capacity, companies are choosing to ship more crude than refined products. More pipeline capacity = more space for refined product. Sure, that may get filled up again eventually, but it is disingenuous to state that increasing capacity will not put downward pressure on the price of gasoline.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by milomilo

How cute, the report confirms the obvious.

Who cares if the companies are profiting anyway? We live in a capitalist country, if you put in constraints to supply then the price will respond to that.

The report does say that relatively more crude is being sent through the pipeline in recent times compared to refined products - I thought there was no demand for Albertan crude? Again though, we live in a capitalist country, the Albertan oil companies do not exist to serve BC, only to make money. If they can make more money sending crude through the pipe than refined, the high prices that causes in BC is irrelevant to them.

It says the company's are behaving in the manner of an oligopoly. The report also lays bare the lie that twinning Transmountain will reduce BC gas prices:

VICTORIA — Premier John Horgan got the answer he was looking for Friday, via a report from the inquiry into gasoline prices that said British Columbians were being overcharged at the pump by almost half a billion dollars a year.

The B.C. Utilities Commission delivered that finding in a 100-plus page report that deftly cut through the complexities of the gasoline marketplace.

The inquiry found no evidence of collusion in fixing prices. But it did find the industry was behaving like an oligopoly, with a limited number of players and less than competitive pricing of the product.

Bottom line: there is an unexplained markup of 13 cents per litre on gasoline in southwestern B.C., and six cents in the northern part of the province.

Moreover, for the market in and around Vancouver, the markup is determined on the basis of what inquiry chair David Morton called a “tail wags dog” calculation.

Only about three per cent of the region’s gasoline supply comes from the U.S. Pacific Northwest. But the spot market in Seattle is used to price the remaining 97 per cent....

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni...s-getting-hosed-at-pumps-via-big-markups