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  #861  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 3:36 AM
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rocketphish rocketphish is offline
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Setting aside all the common elements of these proposals: the arena, the ubiquitous public plazas and parkettes, the gratuitous inclusion of Canadian names and themes, the proposals will live or die based on their differences.

The DCDLS Group's proposal is fanciful... outlandish even. It does have a couple of features that I like: the urban beach, a much more appealing looking library, and more varied architecture. But it's also missing some key features, like burying the Confederation Line... what a waste of prime space! It also seems quite bipolar - like two distinct zones that don't mingle. Overall though it looks to me like they just came up with as many wacky ideas as they could and jammed them all in. It's like somebody on the team may have said "Let's just throw all these oddball concepts at the wall and see what sticks!". A multimedia museum, an automotive museum, a beer museum, an aquarium, a science and innovation pavilion, AND a skatepark? Really??

The RendezVous LeBreton Group's proposal, on the other hand, at first seems more boring, but in reality it's the more practical one, and the one more likely to actually get built as planned. It makes better use of the aquaduct. It turns the Confederation Line into valuable space by building over the top of it. And perhaps most importantly, it brings more employees and permanent residents to the area, people who will keep these new spaces vital and vibrant all the time, not just during tourist season, or when a festival is on. It also better integrates its components within the plan and better integrates with the surrounding neighbourhoods, and even the waterfront (as limited as that is).

For now I'd have to side with RendezVous LeBreton, though I think they could integrate a couple of elements from DCDLS to complete their proposal.
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  #862  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 3:49 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
-NCC needs to use its monument space more efficiently
One solution: stop building friggin' monuments. There needs to be a moratorium on any new mausoleums to ideas after the ones that are already approved have been built. No more. None. Stop. Enough.
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  #863  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 3:50 AM
EdFromOttawa EdFromOttawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanarchit View Post
I'm still looking into them, but I like aspects of both. Some interesting buildings, some regular. Some things seem like gimmicks.

It still doesn't seem like a lot of development though. Roads still seem wide and space between buildings and neighbourhoods still seems too big and disconnected. I wish that it were more mixed and denser. It just doesn't seem like enough.

But I like what they're doing with the canal thing (does it count as an aqueduct?) It's sort of like our little Cheonggyecheon.
The Devcore one is better in terms of density for sure. The Rendez Vous bid still has ****ing cars everywhere and wide roads isolating every element! Opposite of sustainable city building gah.
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  #864  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 3:52 AM
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I am not going to be hasty in my preferences. I like both bids in many regards. In many respects, the Devcore proposal is better in making this a national attraction but then, I look at all of this and wonder what economic realities will do to both of these proposals. We all know how this works, things cost too much, or we are in an economic downturn, so many elements are simplified or eliminated.

After visiting the Sony Center in Berlin last spring, I do like to include some glitz, so bring on the light shows. I also like the design of arena in Melnyk's bid and making the aqueduct a centre of activity. I really think the library ideas are an afterthought for the most part and this needs further work especially with the latest revelations of working with LAC. Given the latest developments, this needs to be a major feature of these developments and I think money will make them a reality. In other words, the library needs to be a highlight.

As I said, I like a lot of what I see but I am going to have to mull this around my mind longer. I am not concerned about a car museum if well implemented. I think a love of cars is so universal in Canadian culture that it would be enormously popular if well designed. Is there another one in Canada of any significance? And after seeing the Aquarium in Toronto, bring one on in Ottawa!!!
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  #865  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 3:55 AM
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Time for the public to take its look at LeBreton designs

Ottawa Citizen Editorial Board
Published on: January 26, 2016 | Last Updated: January 26, 2016 10:14 PM EST


For more than half a century the LeBreton Flats have been a brownfield in the downtown of the nation’s capital. But that, it seems, is about to change. Two bidders, seeking to develop a large chunk of public land west of Booth Street, have brought forward ambitious proposals that should, if realized, transform the city.

The projects are huge, on a scale that seems out of place in a city so regularly accused of failing to have grand designs. It is exciting to see them.

The NCC has done its work. The bidders have done theirs. Now the people of the National Capital Region have a job to do. And they don’t have much time. The proposals will be on public display until 9:30 p.m. Wednesday at the Canadian War Museum. (With public presentations at 6 p.m.) After that, online consultation runs until midnight on Feb. 8.

The voices of Ottawans can affect the project design. The NCC says so. And while there is going to be more consultation, it’s valuable to see, now, what these two groups are proposing.

When the public looks closely they might spot some undetected red flags. But to see those, you have to look and make your voice heard.

Here are a few outstanding questions that the Citizen believes need answering. The first is financing. How is this development going to be paid for? Who will own the land? If it’s being sold to private developers, do we — Canadians and Ottawans — retain any say in the designs?

And, will we get what we’re being shown?

Just how committed is the Devcore Canderel DLS Group to an aquarium, a skatepark and a museum about cars? How committed is the RendezVous LeBreton Group to building overtop of the LRT line? Are the museums and installations national enough in character to justify using this space? LeBreton is not just city land. It belongs to the nation. Ottawans — and the developers — need to ask themselves as the process goes forward whether or not they’re sufficiently accounting for that fact.

In coming days, Ronald Reagan’s famous catchphrase ‘Trust, but verify’ should be our guide for the future of this massive development.

We deserve answers for ourselves and those who will come after us. LeBreton is precious. This may be the last chance to get it right for 50 years. The proposals are a very good start. There is much to think about and to admire. We do need to dream a little, but we, the citizens of this community, need to be good stewards to ensure the road ahead is paved with more than good intentions.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/let...breton-designs
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  #866  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 3:58 AM
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The NCC invites you to
Complete the online questionnaire
(until February 8, 2016)


http://ncclebretonconsultationccnlebreton.environics.ca
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  #867  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 4:17 AM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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Though I like the covered Confederation Line and aqueduct showcase in Melnyk's plan, I also like the imagination that DCDLS has shown in its plan. I'd argue it's the more likely to succeed at being an interesting place to locals and tourists year-round.

Remember, the only thing that's preventing Ottawa from being ambitious is our lack of ambition.
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  #868  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 4:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson View Post
Though I like the covered Confederation Line and aqueduct showcase in Melnyk's plan, I also like the imagination that DCDLS has shown in its plan. I'd argue it's the more likely to succeed at being an interesting place to locals and tourists year-round.

Remember, the only thing that's preventing Ottawa from being ambitious is our lack of ambition.
It might turn into a public-use versus high-density-use tug-of-war. Both are very important in the mix. The emphasis is totally different between these two bids, however.

Rendez-Vous is dominated by high density residential, office space, and street-level retail. Devcore's bid has slightly more than half its space dedicated to public facilities.

Tough choices! I'll be happy either way, I'm quite tired of seeing empty lots along that huge expanse by the river.
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  #869  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 4:52 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
The NCC invites you to
Complete the online questionnaire
(until February 8, 2016)


http://ncclebretonconsultationccnlebreton.environics.ca
Almost a dozen whole days of sham consultation! Wheee!
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  #870  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 4:53 AM
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It might turn into a public-use versus high-density-use tug-of-war.
And the winner is... grass!
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  #871  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 5:25 AM
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DEVCORE: How much will admission be to this amusement park? I'll start saving now, and take a week of vacation, because that's how long it will take to make my way across 2km of ridiculous attractions that I will literally never need to go to more than once. I've already been to the Ripley's aquarium in Toronto, so I'm good for like 10 years. They do have a few nice ideas, but this entire plan is crammed full of unsustainable attractions. Lebreton Flats could put Niagara Falls out of business. How very un-Canadensis. When the guy presenting the plan is bored out of his mind, there's a problem. Also, their slideshow was absolutely terrible. If you can't put together an attractive and polished slideshow or show a little enthusiasm for your own bid, I fear how you might handle the details of the actual project. Other things to note from the public event: They start right off the bat by fully admitting they were in way over their heads and didn't realize the scope of the project. WTF!? This is not encouraging. He also mentioned MANY times that the entire thing won't be perfect and changes will be made over time. That means every time a bizarre business or attraction closes, a cheap new condo gets its wings. The silent crowd gave this presentation little applause.

RENDEZVOUS: I went in planning to be blown out of the water by this bid. I was not, but I think its still fairly solid, and prefer it. I love the arena. It is perfect and we deserve it. I love covering the LRT and use of the aqueduct. As long as there's a lot of retail and restaurant space at the base of every condo/hotel, I'm not too mad about their abundance. This proposal definitely has a better skyline presence, and I imagine the condos in the renders aren't final designs and COULD end up being more exciting when the time comes to actually build them. I'm also super happy to hear that the CCOC is involved. In general, the partners really are lined up for this proposal, and they actually have the fucking Sens! I definitely wish they had another large element or two, but maybe that will come along. The Abilities Centre is certainly to be respected as well. Audience chatter was much more prominent during this presentation, and it got more applause.

Interesting note: Rendezvous' library proposal is actually outside the area in question, on land half owned by the NCC and half owned by the city. They've said it can be scaled/adjusted to meet the new requirements for the potential LAC partnership, but that would all depend on the city and NCC getting along. I like their library and like that the wood matches the arena, but they remain very different buildings.
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  #872  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 5:35 AM
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OMG. Devcore has secretly designed an Olympic village. Its got lots of pavilions for sports, housing for athletes, and even a medals plaza and a broadcasting centre.
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  #873  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 7:24 AM
Temperance Temperance is offline
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I agree with most of the posters on here about the general feel of the two proposals. Rendez Vous is boring but more practical. The arena design in the sen's proposal is great. Having said this I do have concerns that Rendez Vous is actually too dense - a sea of drab concrete high rises. It would be good to incorporate some of the ideas from each. Perhaps more public attractions, varied architecture, and space than in the Rendez Vous proposal but more housing than in Devcore.
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  #874  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 10:35 AM
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Having Guy Laliberté on your side is huge and could prove to be the game changer. Hats off to Devcore for deciding to enter this battle through culture which is the best way to counteract the immense impact the Sens have through Rendez-Vous' bid. Fighting fire with fire. These are 2 solid bids and either will change the face of downtown Ottawa.
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  #875  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:48 PM
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The NCC gets its 'Wow!' on LeBreton. Now go big or stay home?

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: January 26, 2016 | Last Updated: January 26, 2016 10:12 PM EST


The NCC got the ‘Wow!’ it wanted in the LeBreton Flats proposals. Now to ask of the why?

The plan from Devcore Canderel DLS Group is full of new ideas but suffers from frothy ambition.

There is an NHL-sized arena, and a new library, and an auto museum (World Automotive Experience) and a media museum (Canadian Communication Centre) and an aquarium, a skateboarding park (“the best in the world”) and so much more.

A new public French school, a Farm Boy, a YMCA, a daycare and – lest your head not be spinning – an “air pavilion” featuring a simulated skydiving experience.

And 2,500 new housing units.

“Basically, our plan is that we have something for everyone,” said team member Daniel Peritz, a vice-president at Canderel. No kidding.

It just seems like creative overkill, a plan not really held together thematically but more a collection of shiny architectural objects and disconnected uses. (I was, seriously, getting dizzy trying to follow it all.)

And how would it stand up economically? Museums, as a rule, don’t make money: so we’re offered not one, but three? (There is a beer museum in there somewhere too.)

And the NHL-sized arena is obviously problematic. Only moments after the Devcore presentation, Ottawa Senators owner Eugene Melnyk was emphatically saying his team would never play in someone else’s arena, nor does he intend on selling the team.

So who plays in Devcore’s “Theatre of Sports and Entertainment”?

On the positive side, the so-called Canadensis Walk — which features greenery and botanical slices from different parts of the country — did look dynamite.

The plan from the RendezVous LeBreton Group is more modest, and by extension, looks more doable.

Its centrepiece is a new arena/event centre that has been situated so it takes advantage of views of the Ottawa River, especially Nepean Bay Inlet. It sits beside the main gathering place in the plan, LeBreton Square.

Probably the most innovative part of the RendezVous plan, which includes Melnyk and his team, is building a roadway over the proposed LRT route.

The great advantage there is that it connects two big chunks of the LeBreton property that would otherwise be separated by the rail line.

The RendezVous group is also proposing two more ice pads in an adjacent Sensplex that will include an “Abilities Centre” to serve those with disabilities.

So, without a doubt, the plan is pretty heavy on the ice-skating side and will look as though the Senators are the dominant corporate interest.

This will not please everyone.

But architect Barry Hobin did make a solid point in his presentation. The history of LeBreton is a community tilted toward the river.

And so it should be again. Thus does the RendezVous proposal provide for thousands of units of new housing, to be built-in five connected neighbourhoods.

There was an enormous amount of information released on Tuesday but we scarcely had a tool to evaluate it all.

Both plans, for instance, incorporate a city library, possibly with involvement from the National Library of Canada.

Will the city proceed with its new central branch? And when? We don’t know.

Will the land, all 21.6 hectares, be sold or leased? We aren’t certain, but do know the $170 million contamination cleanup will be part of any negotiation.

How much public money will be sought to make these plans happen? We don’t know.

Certainly, the Melnyk group look to be more shovel ready. If all goes well, he said the team could be playing at the Flats in 2021.

“Most of us on this side are already in the hockey business,” said Sens president Cyril Leeder.

Though the Canadian Tire Centre is only 20 years old, he said it will be due for multi-million dollar renovations in the next 10 years.

The NCC, of course, now has some difficult choices, made harder by how high they set the bar themselves.

In their request-for-proposals, they wanted an anchor public use that would enhance the city’s cultural fabric and be a national, if not international, attraction.

Are we there yet? It isn’t clear. The NCC does have a third option: reject them both.

We should not lose focus over what the debate is about. It isn’t about whether RendezVous beats Devcore, or Arena 1 is better than Arena 2. It’s about whether, after 60 years of waiting, we’re arrived at the right plan at all.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected]
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...g-or-stay-home
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  #876  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bikegypsy View Post
Having Guy Laliberté on your side is huge and could prove to be the game changer.
< Paranoid Mode >

A radio commentator yesterday made the remark that this was a step-by-step approach to acquiring the Sens and moving them to Quebec City

< /Paranoid Mode >
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  #877  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 1:56 PM
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Great renderings are nice, but I really wonder about how the money works on this. Both groups are promising many billions in infrastructure, site cleanup, construction, utility relocation, LRT burial (or covering, not sure), landscaping plus all kinds of community amenities that have high operating costs. But neither proposal seems to have a lot of revenue. Museums, planetariums, botanical gardens, etc. are not usually profitable institutions, the Sens are a break-even team, I don't know what a typical markup on a condo is in Ottawa, but I can't imagine it can cover these enormous costs and deliver the kind of return the partners would expect.

Clearly the NCC has created an evaluation chart that incentivizes design and promising lots of amenities and community benefits, but unless these various billionaires are subsidizing this project out of pocket, I wonder what can actually be built in a reasonable amount of time.
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  #878  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by HighwayStar View Post
< Paranoid Mode >

A radio commentator yesterday made the remark that this was a step-by-step approach to acquiring the Sens and moving them to Quebec City

< /Paranoid Mode >
And if anyone knows just a bit about Desmarais, his connection to Ottawa, and the financial and practical absurdity of doing something that, they'd know that is utter nonsense.
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  #879  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:39 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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OMG. Devcore has secretly designed an Olympic village. Its got lots of pavilions for sports, housing for athletes, and even a medals plaza and a broadcasting centre.
Pretty much. Ottawa 2124?
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  #880  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:42 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Temperance View Post
I agree with most of the posters on here about the general feel of the two proposals. Rendez Vous is boring but more practical. The arena design in the sen's proposal is great. Having said this I do have concerns that Rendez Vous is actually too dense - a sea of drab concrete high rises.
What, exactly, is the problem?

That they are "drab"? The self-styled "community" keeps rejecting anything much more than "drab". "Concrete"? (I see a lot of glass, myself.) High-rises?
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