General Updates and News

[Dmajackson]

A developer is proposing to build on four parcels of land in Downtown Dartmouth. Three are located on Pine Street Ext and one is on Ochterlonely. There are no specifics yet but a low-rise would be on the Octerlonely parcel, a highrise north of Pine St Ext and a midrise on the south-side of Pine St Ext. It mentions some limited retail included and a lot of work for the proposed Canal Greenway owned by HRM.

I'd read the document linked to below but here's the just of it I think. When the Dartmouth Downtown MPS was created in 2000 five oppurtunity sites were identified. Two have been developed since leaving three located at North & Alderney, Pine St Ext, and Prince & Alderney. The Pine St Ext site is the former bowling alley and is now owned by the developer. Another parcel of land now in the proposal was supposed to become a Sobey's but the plan fell through and it was never added to the oppurtunity site's list. As part of the proposal the two remaining parcels are going to be added to the list to ensure high quality construction.

The ammendment to add the lands to the oppurtunity site's list and include the parkland in the process (to make the developer pay for some upgrades) is going before council tomorrow night. Afterwards the standard Development Agreement process will proceed to develop the lands.

Case 15781

[JET]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

A developer is proposing to build on four parcels of land in Downtown Dartmouth. Three are located on Pine Street Ext and one is on Ochterlonely. There are no specifics yet but a low-rise would be on the Octerlonely parcel, a highrise north of Pine St Ext and a midrise on the south-side of Pine St Ext. It mentions some limited retail included and a lot of work for the proposed Canal Greenway owned by HRM.

I'd read the document linked to below but here's the just of it I think. When the Dartmouth Downtown MPS was created in 2000 five oppurtunity sites were identified. Two have been developed since leaving three located at North & Alderney, Pine St Ext, and Prince & Alderney. The Pine St Ext site is the former bowling alley and is now owned by the developer. Another parcel of land now in the proposal was supposed to become a Sobey's but the plan fell through and it was never added to the oppurtunity site's list. As part of the proposal the two remaining parcels are going to be added to the list to ensure high quality construction.

The ammendment to add the lands to the oppurtunity site's list and include the parkland in the process (to make the developer pay for some upgrades) is going before council tomorrow night. Afterwards the standard Development Agreement process will proceed to develop the lands.

Case 15781

"This policy stresses the importance of properly relating the design of new
development on these parcels to complement historical, architectural and natural features. The policy
enabled approval of the ‘Lock 4 at Starr’ condo project in 2004, and the ‘Greenvale Lofts’ project
in 2007. Since the applicant is proposing to undertake improvements to the adjacent HRM land,
MPS policy should be revised to address the public lands together with the applicant’s lands. This would ensure that the development is complementary and that improvements to the public lands are
carried out through the development agreement process. The Shubenacadie Canal Commission will
be closely consulted as their mandate overlaps with HRM’s on these lands."

I wish that I could see proposed renderings. I can't imagine a "highrise" right next to the Greenvale, or beside the greenway. I like the idea of closing off Pine St ext and daylighting part of the 'canal'.
Sobey's bought the land to block superstore; I don't think they had any plan to put a store there.
Be nice to have something on these empty spots. Makes me nervous, that no designs have been put out. JET

[terrynorthend]

I wonder if this is at all related to "City issues request for tender to examine Dartmouth viewplanes"

[Jonovision]

Sounds promising to me. Of course I would really like to know the developer involved and then see a draft plan. That comment about Lock 4 fitting in makes me worry a little. That has to be one of the ugliest pieces of crap in downtown Dartmouth.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Sounds promising to me. Of course I would really like to know the developer involved and then see a draft plan. That comment about Lock 4 fitting in makes me worry a little. That has to be one of the ugliest pieces of crap in downtown Dartmouth.

There is major competition for ugly in downtown Dartmouth. The building on the corner of Portland and Prince Albert and one beside it couldn't be uglier.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Empire

There is major competition for ugly in downtown Dartmouth. The building on the corner of Portland and Prince Albert and one beside it couldn't be uglier.

I don't mind the taller of the two, but the second one that was built looks like a two-bit motel and looks terrible on that plot of land. Both were built by Innovative, who did a good job on the greenvale bldg on Ochterloney and Victoria Rd. JET

[Keith P.]

Allnovascotia.com is reporting that Carsand-Mosher has put their building on Barrington up for sale at the price of $1.5 million, with a view to closing the store and leaving the street, and having the property redeveloped by the purchaser.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by JET

I don't mind the taller of the two, but the second one that was built looks like a two-bit motel and looks terrible on that plot of land. Both were built by Innovative, who did a good job on the greenvale bldg on Ochterloney and Victoria Rd. JET

The building that looks like a two-bit hotel has to be the worst in HRM. It shows how the planning dept. has no control over development of this type. This is happening in Hfx north end to a certain degree. This building appearance issue has to be addressed. The theory that you cannot legislate what a building looks like has to be scrapped and the new design review committee has to have the power to say go back to the drawing board.

[kph06]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Allnovascotia.com is reporting that Carsand-Mosher has put their building on Barrington up for sale at the price of $1.5 million, with a view to closing the store and leaving the street, and having the property redeveloped by the purchaser.

I noticed this last week on the Partner's Global Website. The building falls directly under a viewplane, so theres no chance of any height here. For 1.5 million it might even be a stretch for it to be torn down just to add a floor or two.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by kph06

I noticed this last week on the Partner's Global Website. The building falls directly under a viewplane, so theres no chance of any height here. For 1.5 million it might even be a stretch for it to be torn down just to add a floor or two.

Its in the heritage district, so therefore there is little to nothing one can do with it, except adding on to in on the back side above mountain equipment.

I believe the height limit is 50 feet to.

At $150 a square foot it is a bit pricey

[someone123]

Does the district designation require that all of these buildings be preserved?

In a way, the style of the Carsand-Mosher building is appealing, but that strip of buildings just doesn't seem appropriate for Barrington. Having two storey neighbourhood-style commercial on a main street is a wasted opportunity. It would be way better if they were demolished or relocated and replaced with a four storey building. Maybe some residential units could also go in above MEC.

In the short term this seems like more bad news for Barrington.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Sounds promising to me. Of course I would really like to know the developer involved and then see a draft plan. That comment about Lock 4 fitting in makes me worry a little. That has to be one of the ugliest pieces of crap in downtown Dartmouth.

Yes that's a disaster. Hopefully we can do better this time, but we've still got the same development control in Dartmouth.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by someone123

Does the district designation require that all of these buildings be preserved?

In a way, the style of the Carsand-Mosher building is appealing, but that strip of buildings just doesn't seem appropriate for Barrington. Having two storey neighbourhood-style commercial on a main street is a wasted opportunity. It would be way better if they were demolished or relocated and replaced with a four storey building. Maybe some residential units could also go in above MEC.

In the short term this seems like more bad news for Barrington.

Damn, what a great store. Knowledgable, friendly staff and great products.

So what is left open on the street? The Carsand Mosher building isn't too bad from the Barrington side, but doesn't do much for the cross street (Blowers?). Maybe this is an opportunity to tie Barrington in with MEC, which is about the only retail success story in downtown proper lately.

How much new retail space has been built in developments like Bishop's Landing and the Courtyard Marriot? Have any of the missing businesses on Barrington migrated elsewhere, or have they simply shut down. Maybe Jane Jacob's is right - a mix of old and new buildings is absolutely essential for a healthy street. Barrington doesn't have many new buildings at all and heritage buildings aren't right for all retail, office or residential uses. Diversity is really lacking, both in users and available space.

Good thing we built such a lovely parkade on Granville so that suburbanites could drive downtown and spend, spend spend. Yeah that worked out well. The only thing I can keep saying is that Barrington is hopefully in bad shape due to property owners that were waiting for the Heritage incentives to kick in. There's issues that need to be dealt with, but Someone123 is right, the street is in much worse shape than it should be, especially considering the relative improvements throughout the rest of downtown. IMO things started to really go down hill when Sam closed down (music business problem, not necessarily the street) and later when Dooly's closed down (a healthy business where the lease wasn't renewed). After that it looks like momentum kicked in - papered over windows have that effect.

Let's hope it really is darkest before dawn.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

Damn, what a great store. Knowledgable, friendly staff and great products.

So what is left open on the street? The Carsand Mosher building isn't too bad from the Barrington side, but doesn't do much for the cross street (Blowers?). Maybe this is an opportunity to tie Barrington in with MEC, which is about the only retail success story in downtown proper lately.

How much new retail space has been built in developments like Bishop's Landing and the Courtyard Marriot? Have any of the missing businesses on Barrington migrated elsewhere, or have they simply shut down. Maybe Jane Jacob's is right - a mix of old and new buildings is absolutely essential for a healthy street. Barrington doesn't have many new buildings at all and heritage buildings aren't right for all retail, office or residential uses. Diversity is really lacking, both in users and available space.


Let's hope it really is darkest before dawn.

Most of the retail tenants downtown have either closed because they could not make it, or have relocated to areas like SGR or burbs.

Look at historic properties, granville mall and barrington street. They are all either dying or dead retail wise.

I've said it before, the biggest problem is that SGR has sucked any hope of Barrington street ever making it retail wise.

[coolmillion]

I find the situation on Barrington St. troubling, but I think it has more to do with misguided managment on the part of the city (lack of incentives for upkeep and upgrading of buildings) and property owners (starfish is a prime example) than anything else. And it becomes a vicious circle - a store closes, potential shoppers have a worse impression of the street, existing businesses suffer, another one closes. It may take a leap of faith on the part of some well-known national retailers to revive the area by moving in. I have always thought that there is great potential for a massive overhaul of Scotia Square. There are so many people working around there, passing through to the huge parkade, eating the food court, connecting to a bus, etc. etc. but the shops are absolute crap and no one thinks of it as a place to buy anything remotely current or useful (exception - the source). Same with Barrington Place. If these malls had some decent stores, and if the former Birks site offered some relevant retail, this could serve as an anchor for the rest of the street. I still have hope that some people are willing to walk or take the bus to downtown shopping districts as they do in many cities in the world (less in the US and Canada than anywhere else). HRM and property managers should get their asses in gear.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by coolmillion

I find the situation on Barrington St. troubling, but I think it has more to do with misguided managment on the part of the city (lack of incentives for upkeep and upgrading of buildings) and property owners (starfish is a prime example) than anything else. And it becomes a vicious circle - a store closes, potential shoppers have a worse impression of the street, existing businesses suffer, another one closes. It may take a leap of faith on the part of some well-known national retailers to revive the area by moving in. I have always thought that there is great potential for a massive overhaul of Scotia Square. There are so many people working around there, passing through to the huge parkade, eating the food court, connecting to a bus, etc. etc. but the shops are absolute crap and no one thinks of it as a place to buy anything remotely current or useful (exception - the source). Same with Barrington Place. If these malls had some decent stores, and if the former Birks site offered some relevant retail, this could serve as an anchor for the rest of the street. I still have hope that some people are willing to walk or take the bus to downtown shopping districts as they do in many cities in the world (less in the US and Canada than anywhere else). HRM and property managers should get their asses in gear.

From industry knowledege, the anchor retailers are looking for premises on SGR and will not consider the true downtown core.

I feel with evenual development of the clyde street lots that a further draw will be created in the SGR area.

I believe, as typical of Halifax, we have missed the boat yet again.

[spaustin]

Yep it has been one after the other on poor Barrington. Peep Show, Tim's, Dooly's, Sam's, CD Plus and now Carsand Mosher. I'm still hopeful that the street will turn the corner, but if there is no retail left, it'll be a lot tougher to lure any new retailers in to replace what's gone. One or two vacant storefronts is manageable, but as the street empties out it'll become harder and harder since no one is going to want to open on an empty street. It's noteworthy that what little activity has happened on Barrington lately hasn't been to add retail. The old theatre is some design place now and Freemason's Hall is all office. Maybe the street won't be a retail street anymore and will instead be a mix of restaurants, bars and office? If the street is going to survive as a retail street, luring a big national retailer that is a real draw into one of Starfish's projects would help a lot because both their properties are smack in the middle and offer the potential space to make it possible. At the end of the day, what Barrington really needs is more residential in the Downtown since it's clearly really difficult to survive on office workers alone!

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

Let's hope it really is darkest before dawn.

I really hope you're right because it's certainly becoming a starless and moonless night out there.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Maybe the street won't be a retail street anymore and will instead be a mix of restaurants, bars and office? If the street is going to survive as a retail street, luring a big national retailer that is a real draw into one of Starfish's projects would help a lot because both their properties are smack in the middle and offer the potential space to make it possible. At the end of the day, what Barrington really needs is more residential in the Downtown since it's clearly really difficult to survive on office workers alone!

Maybe that is the problem - maybe it's not a retail street. SDM could be right, maybe the ship has sailed on Barrington as a rejuvenated retail destination. Maybe it's some other type of street - the right mix of office, residential, convenience retail, restaurants, etc. could make quite an exciting street. Not all great streets are shopping streets. If this is true though Barrington is in for a much harder ride than we've been hoping for.

When Barrington was the high-end retail street the street car line and high wealth government, banking and office jobs allowed a significant concentration of prestige retail near Grand Parade for a few decades, even without a significant residential population. That prestige retail is now on Spring Garden. The other big loss though is the department stores, the anchors - and if anchors are looking to Spring Garden then what is left for Barrington?

[beyeas]

Obviously the problem with Barrington has a lot of different roots.
Can you imagine the "local" demand for retail in that area if the condo towers proposed by UG and the one for the discovery centre existed though? A combined 40 stories of condos filled with people who moved there for downtown living? Sounds like something that would make a difference to me! In the end it is clear that Barrington is never again going to be a street that people drive to to shop... but it may survive someday as a mixed use street with shopping aimed at people who want to live "locally".

[someone123]

I think that Barrington definitely should be fully commercial, but that it's not going to be the 60s-style main street that it was in its heyday. The best-case scenario is to get a couple thousand people living nearby (keep in mind that this was true up until the 60s and 70s when lots of people moved out of the inner-city) who will create demand for an extra block or so of retail, and then the rest would be a mix of restaurants, some services for workers and residents, and then random interesting locally-owned shops.

Spring Garden Road is already the place for chains, and the suburbs are the place to go for cheap prices and lots of parking. Barrington shouldn't be competing directly with those other retail areas.

I also think it's totally true that retail areas get either in virtuous or vicious circles. Once a place has a decent mix of stores it's worth it for shoppers to go there to see what's happening - it gets a good reputation and continues to grow. When stores shut down, suddenly it becomes less and less interesting and then others move out. It's always good for retailers to have others nearby, particularly competitors that set up a situation where shoppers have many options.