Cogswell Interchange

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So you’re essentially surmising that if we had top-notch transit that people would still rather sit in a traffic jam, and struggle to find expensive parking, leaving transit underused? Then why bother with transit at all since people will still consider the car to be a superior way to get around?

Perhaps the city should just be designed with business centres spread around to the suburbs so everybody isn’t travelling to the same place at the same time? [/QUOTE]

It isn't that "people" (which implies everyone, or at least the majority) would prefer it. It's that there would always be enough people trying to use the roads that the roads would be congested. Many times more people would travel by rail, but car travel requires so much more space per person that there will always be more people wanting to use that space in a major, successful city than there is space available even if that's only say, 5 or 10% of the total number of people entering the city centre.

As to the question of "why bother with transit?" that's pretty simple. Regardless of what anyone wants or prefers, there just isn't enough road space to transport everyone by car without some people being excluded by congestion. And creating a multi-polar city does nothing to address the problems. LA for instance is very multi-polar and suburban with a downtown much smaller than one would expect for the metro area size. But it still has horrible congestion and it makes it harder to provide transit as an alternative since you need lines going to a lot more places with each line serving fewer people. The only solutions are to create options that allow people to bypass congestion or to price road use at a level to prevent congestion. Or both.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Regardless, I didn’t mean to trigger you on the downtown entry fee thing. My viewpoint has always been that a city becomes a better place to live by improving things vs restrictions to force people into doing things a certain way dictated by “those who know better than you”. The vision of the future being pushed by some is starting to feel a little dystopian to me, and I’m not sure that’s what I want for my city. But then maybe I’m just an old fart, as suggested by another member of the forum already…

I'm not sure why someone disagreeing with what part of what someone said would be referred to as being triggered. Regardless, my only point is that restrictions exist whether we like them or not. The restriction is either that an extra charge dissuades some people from traveling by road, or severe congestion dissuades some people instead. This isn't something anyone is "imposing". It's just a matter of physics roads can only hold so much traffic at once and if people are taking up far more space per person than is needed, the road will carry fewer people which excludes many others who would like to use it. It's just a matter of deciding which policy is the best response to that reality.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

It strikes me as odd or even wrong that resolution to traffic congestion should be viewed solely from the perspective of the automobile rather than that of the human. For example, if I'm sitting/standing comfortably on a train speeding to my destination past congested traffic, then I think it's fair to say that from my perspective congestion is solved. Traffic congestion can exist with all its negative implications (EMO, health & safety, economic, etc.) whilst still providing a solution for citizens to traffic congestion through a viable and desirable public transit system.

From what I have seen, nobody is viewing traffic congestion in that way. For me, my primary concern is the efficient movement of people which would be accomplished with through some type of transit ROW or using congestion pricing which would allow buses to move more efficiently. The only difference is that congestion pricing would also address the issue without as great a cost as say, underground transit lines and would also address the economic issues such as commercial vehicle movement. And it would also raise revenue for transportation improvements such as rail transit going forward. But either way, the main issue is the movement of people.

[Nouvellecosse]

For all the people arguing that congestion pricing isn't likely to happen, that's neither here nor there since the city seems to have ruled out rail transit too. Which is my main reason for raising the issue of congestion pricing to begin with. It's the only viable alternative (other than flattening much of the city for wider roads and parking which is also only temporary) and is much cheaper to implement which seems to be the main objection to rail. So if predictions of government hesitancy or a lack of political popularity are the main obstacles, the solution is to speak more loudly in favour of it which is exactly what some are doing with rail (despite it long being discussed and dismissed already).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

As to the question of "why bother with transit?"

That was sarcasm, actually. My point is why would we even consider adding to the burden of people trying to go about their business downtown if we haven't provided them with very good to excellent transit options?

If excellent transit options are put in place, and traffic continues to be an actual problem (i.e. causing tangible delays in shipping goods) then you could consider an entry fee to downtown, but I'm not really sure if it accomplishes anything. The transit options give people who actually need to get there in a timely fashion a method to avoid getting stuck in a traffic jam - if at that point somebody still wants to take their car, well... they'll have to sit in traffic. Before we go into the climate change angle, 12 years from now all car companies will be selling 100% zero emission vehicles, so idling in traffic will be a thing of the past as attrition of ICE vehicles eliminates them from the mix.

Clearly I'm an advocate for excellent transit for Halifax.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not sure why someone disagreeing with what part of what someone said would be referred to as being triggered.

Perhaps triggered was the wrong word to use, but it feels that way sometimes. I'll leave it at that.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

congestion pricing would also address the issue without as great a cost as say, underground transit lines and would also address the economic issues such as commercial vehicle movement. And it would also raise revenue for transportation improvements such as rail transit going forward. But either way

And what makes you think that the current HRM/provincial government would be enlightened enough to place the monies collected from congestion fees into a dedicated account to be used to improve mass transit in Halifax? It is far more likely these monies would instead be dumped into general revenue and used for such worthy projects as the renaming of streets and parks and the construction of new generic artworks to replace statures of old white men of questionable virtue that lived 200 years ago.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

From what I have seen, nobody is viewing traffic congestion in that way.

I think everybody (here, on SSP Halifax) is looking at it that way, actually. This diversion started from the concept that not including forward-looking transit infrastructure in the Cogswell project is a missed opportunity that could lead to literally generations of Haligonians having to live with transit that is always behind the times. Therefore, the movement of people will be relegated to more being in cars rather than on trains (or whatever), because people will always defer to their 'best option'. I've stated over and over again that the 'best option' should be an excellent transit system, but posters here are frustrated that the city does not seem to heading in that direction (and hasn't for over half a century).

It's always been about the movement of people - that's what transportation in general, and transit specifically, is all about. There should be no confusion - we are all talking about the same thing.

[MonctonRad]

Speaking honestly as an ex-Haligonian who lived there for a decade, but has now lived in Moncton for over 30 years, I have the following observations:

- I would love to see an effective mass transportation model developed for HRM. I am honestly interested in this. A well tooled and efficient HRM is good for Halifax, good for NS and, incidentally also has some benefits for all of the Maritimes.
- Any such mass transportation system needs to be multimodality. Fast ferries are not enough, and benefits only Bedford. BRT is not enough, and only really benefits inner suburbs like Clayton Park. A proper integrated mass transportation system would also include a trolley/streetcar/LRT system for getting around the peninsula, and regional commuter rail. Commuter rail potentially could benefit all of HRM, and, adjacent areas even as far flung as Truro and Windsor. Shit, if you had expanded regional rail (using VIA), you could even get day trippers from Moncton.
- Congestion fees are a bad idea. For Haligonians these would be an expensive nuisance. For casual visitors to the city (such as myself), congestion fees would serve as a further disincentive to visit the city in the first place. Tourists arrive overwhelmingly via personal vehicle. They want their cars so that they can visit tourism sites thoughout HRM and in adjacent areas of central NS. It is becoming increasingly expensive and inconvenient to travel now. Add in congestion fees (on top of bridge fares, Cobequid Pass) and, difficulty finding parking in downtown Halifax now, and many people would just stay away. To be perfectly honest, as Moncton has grown over the last 20 years, most of the amenities that Halifax has can be found here now too. Most concerts and acts that come to ScotiaBank Place also come to the Avenir Centre. Shopping is pretty similar. Both cities have decent (but distinct and unique) restaurants. Increasingly, I find myself searching for a reason to visit Halifax. Those reasons are getting fewer and fewer, and, consequently my visits to Halifax are far more infrequent than they used to be. I used to come 3-4x per year. Now, it is more like once every couple of years. My next visit to Halifax will be next March to watch Dune Part Two on the IMAX at Bayers Lake, but, given where the theatre is, I will be more than likely to just stay somewhere out there like the Future Inn and not go onto the peninsula. Congestion fees will make this sort of thought process even more prevalent in the future. Downtown Halifax will become someplace to be avoided, especially for people not within the commuter watershed, but within reasonable driving distance such as myself.

[someone123]

There are large subdivisions being built in areas like Hants County and in theory those could be transit oriented instead of car oriented.

One thing that's been a bit weird about the discussion in HRM is how transit projects are often presented as either-or "solutions" when they are typically small in scale and serve only one segment of transport needs in one area. The budget constraints are not even zero sum due to cost sharing with other levels of government. The bus system itself is not built around transfers, doesn't have good TOD or intermodal connections, and will not scale in its current form. The existing ferries don't interconnect well with the buses. The region has a lot of disparate areas and geographical constraints so a good transport network is almost certainly going to involve a lot of different options that will have to have good transfers.

Another not so great NS-ism or HRM-ism of the past was the idea that areas got "left out" of one type of infrastructure or another which dragged everything to the lowest common denominator, meaning roads in NS. I'm not sure how much this has changed. People should accept that on the peninsula as an example there is very minimal need to nonexistent for highway building so if the population grows a lot there it might call for some distinct infrastructure that won't necessarily make sense in Windsor or Yarmouth.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

FWIW I'll toss a bit of personal experience into the discussion... In both Atlanta and San Diego I parked my car in a parking structure and boarded LRT to downtown areas thus experiencing zero congestion in my travel. Along with private autos, city buses were bringing people to these car park/rail stations. And folks were walking to the rail stations too.

Our 100 series highways are for the most part pretty darn good, becoming congested only upon reaching the city and mostly only during rush hours. I see no need to create additional capacity outside of the metro area and perhaps having our expensive highways underutilized. I like the park and ride model I mentioned above where the parking area is also a transit station. Perhaps build one these parking/rail stations at each of the 100 series highway approaches to the city and then route LRT into the downtown from each of these stations, bobbing and weaving where necessary whilst picking up passengers along the way, to what could become a single route onto the peninsula.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And what makes you think that the current HRM/provincial government would be enlightened enough to place the monies collected from congestion fees into a dedicated account to be used to improve mass transit in Halifax? It is far more likely these monies would instead be dumped into general revenue and used for such worthy projects as the renaming of streets and parks and the construction of new generic artworks to replace statures of old white men of questionable virtue that lived 200 years ago.

That's always possible, but that can we said about anything. "How can we support plan X, Y or Z if we can't guarantee that everything will turn exactly how we want?"

All we can do is advocate for the best plans and criticize and/or vote out governments who don't implement them out in the way we want them to. For instance, we also can't guarantee that if the city builds an urban rail line that it wouldn't be massively over budget, open years behind schedule, and/or be plagued with issues. Or perhaps they could choose a horrible, useless route or station locations. The choices are to either push for what we want in the way we want it and hope we get it, or assume nothing will turn out well and therefore problems are impossible to solve so we shouldn't try.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think everybody (here, on SSP Halifax) is looking at it that way, actually. This diversion started from the concept that not including forward-looking transit infrastructure in the Cogswell project is a missed opportunity that could lead to literally generations of Haligonians having to live with transit that is always behind the times. Therefore, the movement of people will be relegated to more being in cars rather than on trains (or whatever), because people will always defer to their 'best option'. I've stated over and over again that the 'best option' should be an excellent transit system, but posters here are frustrated that the city does not seem to heading in that direction (and hasn't for over half a century).

It's always been about the movement of people - that's what transportation in general, and transit specifically, is all about. There should be no confusion - we are all talking about the same thing.

In our case, we're a city with no other transport options beyond roads (and to a minor extent ferries) nor anything else on the horizon. So for us, eliminating congestion and allowing people to travel around town efficiently are indeed the same thing. But I agree that the misconception of transit solving congestion is also very common.

[IanWatson]

They've begun demo of the overpass.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Cool. Hopefully somebody will post some pics.

[KMcK]

https://cogswellproject.photosentine...allation/18108

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks! I'll have to bookmark that site.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

They've begun demo of the overpass.

Didn’t HRM claim at one point that it had deteriorated to the point where it was ready to fall down?

My one fond memory of the overpass was the cool 1960s lighting it had at one point, with the top rail of the typical tubular aluminum guardrail being equipped with recessed fluorescent lighting. It didn’t seem to hold up well and eventually the city removed the lights and covered the void with sheetmetal.

[JET]

Big section of the Cogswell ramp is gone. They have been nibbling away at the sides. I have pics from the bus, but don’t know how to post.

[IanWatson]

I hereby petition to change this thread name to "Cogswell Ski Jump".

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

I hereby petition to change this thread name to "Cogswell Ski Jump".

...and it was gone

https://cogswellproject.photosentine...allation/18108

[JET]

There is still a piece up by the Lobster Trap, But not much!