AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by freerover

I mean maybe it would impact project connect. Just a reminder that the green line is on only funded right now to Loyola. Still need the city of manor and Elgin to chip in to get it extended so it can be a truly metro line.

CapMetro (in its role as the regional transit provider) has started the process of funding it further.

The 2023 budget brings the
"Green Line Phase 2 Manor Capital Reserve" up to $800k. Not a whole lot so far, but if they keep funding it year to year, it'll be a chunk in a decade or so. Especially if they can use that as share with other sources.

https://www.capmetro.org/docs/defaul...tal-budget.pdf

[freerover]

Originally Posted by Novacek

CapMetro (in its role as the regional transit provider) has started the process of funding it further.

The 2023 budget brings the
"Green Line Phase 2 Manor Capital Reserve" up to $800k. Not a whole lot so far, but if they keep funding it year to year, it'll be a chunk in a decade or so. Especially if they can use that as share with other sources.

https://www.capmetro.org/docs/defaul...tal-budget.pdf

Would phase 2 just be to wildhorse and manor proper or would that include going all the way to Elgin?

[H2O]

ATP Board was briefed today on LRT changes being analyzed:

https://www.atptx.org/docs/default-s...rsn=570bdb25_1

Among the possibilities are running surface level Downtown. This would require shorter station platforms and train consists due to the length of Downtown blocks. As predicted, they are also examining the number of river crossings, with the Orange Line crossing on the Blue Line bridge and transitioning back to S. Congress.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by freerover

Would phase 2 just be to wildhorse and manor proper or would that include going all the way to Elgin?

With Elgin not even in CapMetro, hard to see CM paying for that extension.

Manor is a different beast. The CapMetro sales tax in Manor is producing over 2M per year for CM, that they don't even use all of (returning back over a million in this budget).

In another decade Manor will likely be contributing 5M /year or so, which could provide a significant chunk for capital expansion of the green line.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by H2O

ATP Board was briefed today on LRT changes being analyzed:

https://www.atptx.org/docs/default-s...rsn=570bdb25_1

Among the possibilities are running surface level Downtown. This would require shorter station platforms and train consists due to the length of Downtown blocks. As predicted, they are also examining the number of river crossings, with the Orange Line crossing on the Blue Line bridge and transitioning back to S. Congress.

If this is the case, don’t build any of it.

[freerover]

What a waste of an opportunity. This means we can’t run double trains if demand ever needs it which is I think where we would be around 2050 but that was a pre pandemic projection.

[Echostatic]

Every single person here needs to speak out against at-grade LRT downtown. It simply will not function. Several American cities have learned this the hard way, and had to spend additional billions later to remedy their network (or deal with the nightmare forever.) See DART.

The underground Downtown core is BY FAR the most important part of Project Connect. I think if they need to save money, they can substantially strip back the scope of the stations downtown, and reduce river crossings to one. But they CAN NOT get rid of grade separation (and elevated rail is a non-starter due to CVCs.)

[chinchaaa]

If this gets blown up, I will be so disappointed (but not surprised).

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Echostatic

Every single person here needs to speak out against at-grade LRT downtown. It simply will not function. Several American cities have learned this the hard way, and had to spend additional billions later to remedy their network (or deal with the nightmare forever.) See DART.

The underground Downtown core is BY FAR the most important part of Project Connect. I think if they need to save money, they can substantially strip back the scope of the stations downtown, and reduce river crossings to one. But they CAN NOT get rid of grade separation (and elevated rail is a non-starter due to CVCs.)

This. All of this.

Austin will be saddling itself for generations with a white elephant if they build at-grade.

[hookem]

Bait and switch. No way.

I’d say get the 20K signatures to force it on the ballot to kill this thing if the landmark part of it is scrapped. I didn’t vote for what Houston has.

[Atom_Mirny]

Originally Posted by chinchaaa

If this gets blown up, I will be so disappointed (but not surprised).

No offense but it's so obviously going to get blown up.

It was sold with a price tag they knew was unrealistic, then all the cost increases they DIDN'T forecast hit and they can't hope to stretch it to cover them all. Or cover many, if any, of them given some of the stories that have come out in the last month.

The timeline is going to go out the window as well because of course it is. Every major transportation program, light rail or otherwise, runs over on cost and time and under-delivers when it finally is completed.

By the time they're done with this I wouldn't be surprised if you get a train that runs from the Convention Center to the airport and everything else ends up as an "improved" bus line.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

This. All of this.

Austin will be saddling itself for generations with a white elephant if they build at-grade.

And yet at-grade light rail works _everywhere_ else.

Hey, my preference is to lose one river crossing and delay the SoCo section, while keeping downtown underground. But if they go at grade in downtown I'm still happy.

Because the result would still be a top transit system and orders of magnitude improvement over what we have now.

You all are acting like at grade light rail would be uniquely unsuited for Austin.

Austin isn't actually all that special.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by freerover

What a waste of an opportunity. This means we can’t run double trains if demand ever needs it which is I think where we would be around 2050 but that was a pre pandemic projection.

Downtown blocks are long enough to accommodate a two-car consist of typical LRVs. With a subway tunnel they could accommodate three-car consists or more.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by hookem

Bait and switch. No way.

I’d say get the 20K signatures to force it on the ballot to kill this thing if the landmark part of it is scrapped. I didn’t vote for what Houston has.

That's not just cutting off your nose to spite your face. That's putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger out of spite.

You think you're ever going to get what you voted for if this blows up now? There's no third times the charm.

Even if they happen to go at grade for now, they can incrementally improve things in the future. Like Dallas. You can't incrementally improve a system that doesn't exist.

(that's leaving aside the question of whether a ballot measure could actually change ProjectConnect, since it was a taxing measure).

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by Atom_Mirny

By the time they're done with this I wouldn't be surprised if you get a train that runs from the Convention Center to the airport and everything else ends up as an "improved" bus line.

Unlikely.

The blue line is still relatively cheap. Not much chance they'd finish that segment, then sit forever on literally billions of dollars in the bank.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by H2O

Downtown blocks are long enough to accommodate a two-car consist of typical LRVs. With a subway tunnel they could accommodate three-car consists or more.

Where "or more" becomes increasingly constrained by platforms, layouts and intersections elsewhere throughout the system.

This is a very important detail. The intention for the downtown subgrade system was to (as best as possible) plan for _potential_ system capacity need far in the future.

Which is great when you can do it. But not if it's the difference between the system even getting built or not.

[drummer]

I'm with Novacek here. We need solutions - and they need to be good, but they'll never be perfect. Waiting for the perfect solution will often result in nothing happening at all.

[freerover]

It would be nice if the ledg allows elevated mass transit over CVCs but I can’t imagine them doing that unless the idea is that it would prevent auto car lanes from being taken by LRT. I’m more concerned about the ledg killing PC altogether.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by freerover

It would be nice if the ledg allows elevated mass transit over CVCs but I can’t imagine them doing that unless the idea is that it would prevent auto car lanes from being taken by LRT. I’m more concerned about the ledg killing PC altogether.

With the State of Texas, any mention of "prevent" and "car" in the same sentence could kill it these days.

[hookem]

Originally Posted by Novacek

That's not just cutting off your nose to spite your face. That's putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger

That’s correct, but it was those who are behind the bait and switch that did it. Not me. Not the voters. This failure is on the liars, I suggest you take it up with them.