Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[begratto]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I have some sympathy. Their parents and governments purposely kept them from learning English.

Where did you get that impression?

There are madatory ESL classes starting in grade 1 all the way to cegep. That's 13 years of ESL. That's not exactly what I call "purposely keeping them from learning English"

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Met up with some chums yesterday who are les français living on the Plateau

Capital F. Thank you.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A Quebec military might become unilingual but if you are approving drugs, certifying airplanes it would be harder to demand bilingualism as the size of the market shrinks. French is stil a major language for world products but a lot of our market is North America only and could easily see French being dropped.

The French military is heavily anglicized, due to Sarkozy's stupid decision to return France in the integrated command of NATO.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The French military is heavily anglicized, due to Sarkozy's stupid decision to return France in the integrated command of NATO.

You've clearly never served. It was never possible to operate jointly at anything above a platoon level without English. And unless France intends to never participate in a joint operation ever again, they'll need to have some competency in the functional language of the alliance. This has been true long before participation in the integrated command. Thankfully, your country's politicians and military officers care more about national security than silly virtue signalling on language politics.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by begratto

Where did you get that impression?

There are madatory ESL classes starting in grade 1 all the way to cegep. That's 13 years of ESL. That's not exactly what I call "purposely keeping them from learning English"

I suspect the ESL classes in Quebec are probably as bad as the FSL classes in ROC. And again this speaks to our sincerity about bilingualism.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I suspect the ESL classes in Quebec are probably as bad as the FSL classes in ROC. And again this speaks to our sincerity about bilingualism.

No they are not as bad. Which explain the higher level of bilingualism of Quebec vs the ROC.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by begratto

Where did you get that impression?

There are madatory ESL classes starting in grade 1 all the way to cegep. That's 13 years of ESL. That's not exactly what I call "purposely keeping them from learning English"

People I know who would have been in elementary school in the 90s report starting later if they are starting earlier we should ask why it's so unsuccessful.

Medium sized EU countries have much better results which is of couse a society wide question.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by vanatox

No they are not as bad. Which explain the higher level of bilingualism of Quebec vs the ROC.

I suspect that's just a matter of exposure. Quebec kids today grow up singing Taylor Swift like their ROC counterparts. What's the equivalent the other way? There isn't one. If they are more bilingual I think it's in spite of school.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by vanatox

No they are not as bad. Which explain the higher level of bilingualism of Quebec vs the ROC.

No one is English the language of the world and one is French. Let's compare English levels in France vs French levels in the UK. We speak much better French and France may have an overall educated level of English to be honest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

People I know who would have been in elementary school in the 90s report starting later if they are starting earlier we should ask why it's so unsuccessful.

Medium sized EU countries have much better results which is of couse a society wide question.

English was moved up to starting in Grade 1 from Grade 3 in 2006 in Quebec, by the Jean Charest Liberal government.

Younger generations are clearly more bilingual than previous ones here, owing to this and maybe Taylor Swift a little bit as well.

[Acajack]

A general comment on the certainties that people have about an independent Quebec having to use *more* English than it does now...

I don't think anyone is thinking that US pilots who would have joint exercises with a hypothetical Quebec air force will be speaking French just for us, but there is a ton of stuff *internal* to Quebec that takes place in English today (or bilingually, with lots of people opting for English as a result) that would immediately or eventually transition to French only if Quebec were a country.

We've gone over them many times before in this forum, so I'm sure everyone knows what I am talking about, right?

And in any event, it's useless to try and bash this into our heads as literally no one here thinks that if we were independent it wouldn't be beneficial to French. Even Quebec federalists know and think this, which is why it's never ever one of the arguments they bring up.

If you get into deep discussions with Quebec federalists, they will admit that some erosion of French is taking place (though they often downplay how much) but will tell you that it's an acceptable price to pay or risk to take in order to be part of one of the world's most successful countries.

(Maybe Canada should actually be paying attention to that last part a bit more.)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

English was moved up to starting in Grade 1 from Grade 3 in 2006 in Quebec, by the Jean Charest Liberal government.

Younger generations are clearly more bilingual than previous ones here, owing to this and maybe Taylor Swift a little bit as well.

The older generations were deeply in love with Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Guns N Roses, Nirvana, among others.

I was there. Floyd, especially, was proportionately more popular in Quebec than elsewhere. "The Wall" concept album was inspired by events at a Pink Floyd concert at the Big Owe in 1977.

https://montrealgazette.com/entertai...pired-the-wall

[Kilgore Trout]

This is not related to anything anyone is currently talking about in this thread, but I thought it might be interesting nonetheless. This came up in a recent conversation with a friend I was catching up with.

I have two friends who are American but moved to Montreal as students and eventually immigrated. They're both Canadian citizens now. They both speak excellent French and until recently had spent their entire careers working for Quebec companies that operate in French (often with many French-from-France employees). Now they both have jobs that are based in the ROC and they're experiencing real culture shock in dealing with English Canadians. It's a remarkably different working environment to Quebec. People are conflict-averse to a fault, passive aggressive and generally unwilling to express anything directly.

Make of that what you will. Personally I find it very interesting and a decent reflection of my own experience of working with ROCers (given that I've spent my entire adult life either in Quebec or overseas). As an English Canadian myself I'm able to play the game and understand the nuances of how everyone is operating, but my American friends seem a bit taken aback.

[MolsonExport]

^echoes my experiences as well.

[harls]

My kids switch between English and French like a light switch. They don't get how some of their high school friends down the street can't do it.

My 'hick backwoods prairie folk parents' were scared their grandkids wouldn't be able to communicate with them. That sort of disappeared after my first kid turned 3.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

English was moved up to starting in Grade 1 from Grade 3 in 2006 in Quebec, by the Jean Charest Liberal government.

Younger generations are clearly more bilingual than previous ones here, owing to this and maybe Taylor Swift a little bit as well.

I'd assume that means that all kids graduating secondary school are at least somewhat bilingual?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A general comment on the certainties that people have about an independent Quebec having to use *more* English than it does now...

I don't think anyone is thinking that US pilots who would have joint exercises with a hypothetical Quebec air force will be speaking French just for us, but there is a ton of stuff *internal* to Quebec that takes place in English today (or bilingually, with lots of people opting for English as a result) that would immediately or eventually transition to French only if Quebec were a country.

We've gone over them many times before in this forum, so I'm sure everyone knows what I am talking about, right?

And in any event, it's useless to try and bash this into our heads as literally no one here thinks that if we were independent it wouldn't be beneficial to French. Even Quebec federalists know and think this, which is why it's never ever one of the arguments they bring up.

If you get into deep discussions with Quebec federalists, they will admit that some erosion of French is taking place (though they often downplay how much) but will tell you that it's an acceptable price to pay or risk to take in order to be part of one of the world's most successful countries.

(Maybe Canada should actually be paying attention to that last part a bit more.)

I think there has certainly been erosiion of French. But this is a global phenomoen only seen as a threat by insecure peoples.

Quebec will often point out they are an Island in an anglophone continent. I think they forget how much Canada protects them from this to some extent. French is a major world language but in North America is a minor language so as an independant country of 8 million why wouldn't they have the same fate as Netherlands. Was there recently and English is the work language in many workplaces. University programs only offered in English are widespread. In bars and restaurants it is common not to be able to be served in Dutch. There is absolutely no question of them losing their language because that's not really how it works and Quebec certainly wouldn't lose French as an independant country but a lot of the benefits they get now would disapear. I guess discussions about Airport regulations between YUL and the new Transport Ministry would be in French instead of now where some might be in English but as a small market it's not clear labels, instructions will still be provided in French. While in EU every langauge gets this here the American behemoth may insist on getting it's way.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think there has certainly been erosiion of French. But this is a global phenomoen only seen as a threat by insecure peoples.

Quebec will often point out they are an Island in an anglophone continent. I think they forget how much Canada protects them from this to some extent. French is a major world language but in North America is a minor language so as an independant country of 8 million why wouldn't they have the same fate as Netherlands. Was there recently and English is the work language in many workplaces. University programs only offered in English are widespread. In bars and restaurants it is common not to be able to be served in Dutch. There is absolutely no question of them losing their language because that's not really how it works and Quebec certainly wouldn't lose French as an independant country but a lot of the benefits they get now would disapear. I guess discussions about Airport regulations between YUL and the new Transport Ministry would be in French instead of now where some might be in English but as a small market it's not clear labels, instructions will still be provided in French. While in EU every langauge gets this here the American behemoth may insist on getting it's way.

I would have thought that most Dutch people are at least as comfortable in Dutch as francophone Quebeckers are in French. The fact that so many of them also have English skills is a plus.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

English was moved up to starting in Grade 1 from Grade 3 in 2006 in Quebec, by the Jean Charest Liberal government.

Younger generations are clearly more bilingual than previous ones here, owing to this and maybe Taylor Swift a little bit as well.

I'm not as old as you, but I started in Grade 6 in Manitoba, and after Grade 10 it was optional. I stuck with it right through graduation while a lot of other classmates opted for home-ec or shop.

I think it starts in Grade 4 now there.

My niece and nephew would be totally lost if my sons started talking to them in French.. although my niece said she was taking duolingo classes online and learned more in a week that she did from her 'French teacher'.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I would have thought that most Dutch people are at least as comfortable in Dutch as francophone Quebeckers are in French. The fact that so many of them also have English skills is a plus.

Yes I don't know politically but I don't think they feel any threat. Having to learn English in order to function isn't seen as a threat. Granted some of it is chicken and egg but explaining that Bill 101 was a law enacted by the majority that doesn't allow the majority to go to school in the other language gets quizical looks in most places.