Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[solo748]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

As a matter of fact I know exactly who this guy is, ever since I read this article:

https://obj.ca/paris-flight-benefit-...-the-atlantic/

And I quote from https://obj.ca/use-it-or-lose-it-new...o-take-flight/ :

"Despite being local residents, 57 per cent of Paris-bound travellers from the Ottawa-Gatineau catchment are not reflected in YOW’s passenger volume because they started and ended their trip at another airport. This hurts the Airport Authority’s ability to attract future routes to YOW because the data understates true demand while over-inflating the nearby alternatives. When it comes to Paris, pre-pandemic, the estimated true Ottawa-Gatineau to/from Paris market was over 80,000 annual passengers and unserved, a key selling point for Air France."

In no way have I stated what I said in previous posts were facts. If you (or anyone else lurking this forum) can't decipher what is said on here as facts or opinions without a disclaimer from each post, then that sounds like a you problem. As a general rule of thumb though, I usually post articles or quotes when stating facts and something that has not happened yet and was not stated in any article or quote is an opinion. Just FYI.

Got 0 idea what what your posted OBJ article might mean

A proper comparison for the Ottawa-based passengers flying to Paris who melt to YUL would be if they make a connection.
57% of Paris bound passengers choose another airport. Typical press - either angling for something or just too dumb.

An Ottawa resident departing from Dorval to fly non-stop to Paris vs departing Ottawa and making a connection (likely at Dorval) is not apples to apples.

All this stupidity doesn't matter for AF's YOW viability. The OTT residents who drove to YUL no longer have the excuse of a quicker, seamless experience. They now have 1 main reason to drive to YUL .... price. And, if there aren't enough OTT residents paying the fare premium the flight is gone.

Ben Smith would have a crystal clear view on the numbers. He understands the impact on Govt travel, he understands Canadian love affair w Aeroplan etc. This is going to be a close call. They don't have the perfecgt aircraft (321 LR) but they have an affluent market and a global hub.

Time will tell.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by solo748

Another one ....


a) they can increase seats by upgauging.
b) what would the added convenience be? What times are you running this 2nd daily? What departure banks and destinations are you getting the additional premium not served by the perfectly timed current flight?

"With my logic" lol,
AC often send their biggest gauge to LHR. There is incredible demand and origin-connectivity (i.e, funnel pax from all over canada/usa thru YYZ)

Yes. Your logic. You seem to be arguing there's no value in frequencies. So per your logic AC should go out and get some 380s and merge some 77W and 789 rotations to LHR. After all the only way to add capacity is to upgauge right? I'm just going by your own thought process and logic here.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I actually wasn't aware Ben Smith was CEO of Air France now, but I'm happy for him. I remember posting back and forth with him on Flyertalk over 15 years ago, I think before he became CCO at AC. He was their designated representative on that site. The guy sure knew his stuff, so it's no surprise to see him at the top of a major worldwide airline group.

I've read some fantastic interviews with him. His steady transformation of AFKL (he's CEO of the group, not Air France) has been pretty interesting to watch. Especially when facing major policy changes, like the ban on short haul flights in France.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by solo748

Got 0 idea what what your posted OBJ article might mean

A proper comparison for the Ottawa-based passengers flying to Paris who melt to YUL would be if they make a connection.
57% of Paris bound passengers choose another airport. Typical press - either angling for something or just too dumb.

An Ottawa resident departing from Dorval to fly non-stop to Paris vs departing Ottawa and making a connection (likely at Dorval) is not apples to apples.

All this stupidity doesn't matter for AF's YOW viability. The OTT residents who drove to YUL no longer have the excuse of a quicker, seamless experience. They now have 1 main reason to drive to YUL .... price. And, if there aren't enough OTT residents paying the fare premium the flight is gone.

Ben Smith would have a crystal clear view on the numbers. He understands the impact on Govt travel, he understands Canadian love affair w Aeroplan etc. This is going to be a close call. They don't have the perfecgt aircraft (321 LR) but they have an affluent market and a global hub.

Time will tell.

Lots of roads to success for this flight. On the connection front there are lots of options. Air Canada's response seems to have been to restore our frequent service to Toronto which does make lots of those options better. With the market bouncing back it's probably harder than usual for AC to even know how many passengers they are losing. Some of those Paris passengers wouldn't have flown at all with a connection. I'm looking at a weekend trip to Paris that I wouldn't have done via anywhere and probably not even driving to Montreal. (though I did that a few times last year it was for longer trips)

[J.OT13]

Sounds like the new flight is very popular. 8k passengers in July. French tourists seem to really like Ottawa compared to Toronto.

Family of 5 from Gatineau were happy to pay an extra $500 ($100 each) for a direct flight instead of driving to Montreal and leaving their car. In some cases, it saves on finding logging in Montreal for an early morning flight.

The connection has been extended to Winter 2023-2024, and for the year. "annoncé la prolongation de la liaison, pour l’hiver 2024 et toute l’année durant.".

Vol Ottawa-Paris: d’une capitale à l’autre sans complexité

Par Daniel LeBlanc, Le Droit
30 juillet 2023

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/a...FBQC2NYD64F3U/

Le nouveau et très populaire vol Ottawa-Paris, une bougie d’allumage?

Par Daniel LeBlanc, Le Droit
30 juillet 2023

--SNIP--

L’aéroport d’Ottawa en chiffres:

• 39 destinations
• 150 vols par jour en moyenne
• 1 953 000 passagers jusqu’ici en 2023*, les chiffres les plus élevés depuis 2019
• 10% du volume de passagers est à l’international (à l’extérieur du Canada et des États-Unis)
• Hausse de 65% du nombre total de passagers par rapport à la même période en 2022
• Le nombre de passagers à l’international est en hausse marquée mais encore 26% sous les chiffres pré-pandémie (période de janvier à juin 2019)
• Prévision de 5 100 000 passagers en 2025, à quasi-égalité avec les chiffres historiques de 2018 et 2019
• 111,8 millions de dollars de revenus en 2022 (+ 97% par rapport à 2021)

* du 1er janvier au 30 juin

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/a...I2SUDG3EDS3GU/

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sounds like the new flight is very popular. 8k passengers in July. French tourists seem to really like Ottawa compared to Toronto.

Family of 5 from Gatineau were happy to pay an extra $500 ($100 each) for a direct flight instead of driving to Montreal and leaving their car. In some cases, it saves on finding logging in Montreal for an early morning flight.

The connection has been extended to Winter 2023-2024, and for the year. "annoncé la prolongation de la liaison, pour l’hiver 2024 et toute l’année durant.".

Interested to see the exact numbers for July when they release. There were 23 round-trips in July so 10,304 total seats capacity. If it lands around 8K that would be ~80% LF during peak season which seems like it doesn't necessarily warrant an upgauge to a 276-seater in the winter.

[BenYOW]

Upcoming press conference tomorrow at 10:00 AM regarding investments in Canadian North's cargo operations at YOW:

Ottawa, Ontario – The Minister of Transport, the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez, the Member of Parliament for Ottawa South, David J. McGuinty, and the President & CEO of Canadian North, Michael Rodyniuk, will make a new funding announcement related to supply chains and improving cargo capacity at the Ottawa International Airport.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

Interested to see the exact numbers for July when they release. There were 23 round-trips in July so 10,304 total seats capacity. If it lands around 8K that would be ~80% LF during peak season which seems like it doesn't necessarily warrant an upgauge to a 276-seater in the winter.

Interested to see the numbers as well. If we can sustain a l/f of >80% for c/y 2023 I’d see that as a pass.

The aeropeso addiction is alive and well here. To make matters worse, AC basically gifted 25K+ status to everyone and their dog last year (so status thru end of 2023) with a double full earnings promo. Massive amounts of people who’d never otherwise get within a sniff of status have it for this year and they’re all trying to score eupgrades and take advantage of gifted lounge passes and free checked bag and zone 2 boarding lol. Free agency will begin on Jan 1 2024 as none of them re-qualify.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes. Your logic. You seem to be arguing there's no value in frequencies. So per your logic AC should go out and get some 380s and merge some 77W and 789 rotations to LHR. After all the only way to add capacity is to upgauge right? I'm just going by your own thought process and logic here.

Rather than write what's obvious to anyone with airline experience and/or network and operational knowledge, let's just agree to disagree.

When AF announces double-daily operations to Ottawa, Ontario I'll be here to eat crow and admit you do, in fact, understand the aviation market.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Lots of roads to success for this flight. On the connection front there are lots of options. Air Canada's response seems to have been to restore our frequent service to Toronto which does make lots of those options better. With the market bouncing back it's probably harder than usual for AC to even know how many passengers they are losing. Some of those Paris passengers wouldn't have flown at all with a connection. I'm looking at a weekend trip to Paris that I wouldn't have done via anywhere and probably not even driving to Montreal. (though I did that a few times last year it was for longer trips)

I dont understand the link between AF to YOW and AC upping YYZ? Are the additions to YYZ around the early evening TATL bank? Do you feel the AC feeders to YYZ/YUL TATL were not sufficient prior?

[solo748]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

Interested to see the numbers as well. If we can sustain a l/f of >80% for c/y 2023 I’d see that as a pass.

Higher LF is always better than lower, but it's the yield that matters most.

80% in prime summer is not that encouraging. What seems (anecdotally) encouraging is the AF fares exYOW seem to stay high. 80% and relatively strong yield is excellent.

This fall/winter is going to be fascinating. I have no idea who's going to fill the plane but let's hope business dealings in Europe and beyond buy refundable fares or front-cabin fares. Let's hope wealthy Ottawa residents on an African safari treat themselves to business cabin, let's hope the local market to UK realize it's far smarter to go direct to CDG and risk misconneciton there vs being stuck in YYZ/YUL due to the pisspoor Rapidair service.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by solo748

I dont understand the link between AF to YOW and AC upping YYZ? Are the additions to YYZ around the early evening TATL bank? Do you feel the AC feeders to YYZ/YUL TATL were not sufficient prior?

YOW-YYZ on AC is still a far cry from pre-pandemic days. No sign of an increase this winter from the present 12x. In fact the 12x has been rejigged in the off-peak hours so that there will be a 3 hour gap between YOW departures instead of the present 2 with no departure at 1200 or 1300. Pre-pandemic YOW-YYZ on AC was 18x on weekdays. YTZ didn't exist back then but it's still 16x net vs 18x and 4 of those are Dash 8s whereas 1 daily used to be a 767.

Originally Posted by RomanR27

Interested to see the exact numbers for July when they release. There were 23 round-trips in July so 10,304 total seats capacity. If it lands around 8K that would be ~80% LF during peak season which seems like it doesn't necessarily warrant an upgauge to a 276-seater in the winter.

I will be very surprised if the LF is lower than 90% in July. Otherwise there'd be no reason to upgauge in the winter/low season. Just booked my first YOW AF trip - going to FCO and in the low season - and booked a full Y fare as it wasn't a lot more than standard Y (basic Y was substantially cheaper if you can get away with a carryon only! Here's hoping for daily next summer.

Today's departure count: 75

Today's cancellation count (so far): 1

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by solo748

I dont understand the link between AF to YOW and AC upping YYZ? Are the additions to YYZ around the early evening TATL bank? Do you feel the AC feeders to YYZ/YUL TATL were not sufficient prior?

With hourly flights dozens of destinations are fastest served by Air Canada through Toronto or Montreal. Back when we were down to 3 or 4 a day there were some terrible connections and the potential to be late was disastrous.

If you are going to non Paris Europe frequently the choice probably comes down to price or alliance preference.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by solo748

Rather than write what's obvious to anyone with airline experience and/or network and operational knowledge, let's just agree to disagree.

It's a discussion forum. Not a professional forum. Get off your high horse.

Originally Posted by solo748

When AF announces double-daily operations to Ottawa, Ontario I'll be here to eat crow and admit you do, in fact, understand the aviation market.

I was very specific that they could only go double daily if they get the XLR. They clearly don't have the equipment to do this. In your zeal to share your status as a pro, your reading comprehension seems to have suffered.

I hope that AF does eventually pick up the XLR because I'd love to see what an airline like AF does with it in North America, Africa and the Middle East.

[YOWhopeful]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

With hourly flights dozens of destinations are fastest served by Air Canada through Toronto or Montreal. Back when we were down to 3 or 4 a day there were some terrible connections and the potential to be late was disastrous.

If you are going to non Paris Europe frequently the choice probably comes down to price or alliance preference.

You make it sound like Air Canada is a reliable airline. Connections might look great on paper but it NEVER works out as it should. I travel to Europe five times a year and will never go through YUL or YYZ again if I can help it. Probably two out of three flights between YUL and YOW or YYZ and YOW are delayed. Massively delayed.

Air France despite the enormous multipronged airport that is CDG is timely, punctual. If the departure is at 9 am they push back at 9 am or very close to that time. When does that ever happen with AC? AC is atrocious with connnectors. Like I said, never again if I can help it.

Also I just returned from Paris on Sunday and arriving at YOW was a pleasure. I have a Nexus card and no luggage and within 2 minutes of exiting the plane was at pillar 12 waiting for my Uber.

[YOWhopeful]

Also their frequent flier program is excellent. Easy to understand. Basically if you fly two round trips a year to a destination in Europe (beyond Paris) with the cheapest business class fare would bring you to Flying Blue Gold status (180 XP) and free lounge access. In face on my last flight, the flight attendant in business class was going through the business class section ensuring all were registered with flying blue and otherwise offering to do it for them.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

You make it sound like Air Canada is a reliable airline. Connections might look great on paper but it NEVER works out as it should. I travel to Europe five times a year and will never go through YUL or YYZ again if I can help it. Probably two out of three flights between YUL and YOW or YYZ and YOW are delayed. Massively delayed.

Air France despite the enormous multipronged airport that is CDG is timely, punctual. If the departure is at 9 am they push back at 9 am or very close to that time. When does that ever happen with AC? AC is atrocious with connnectors. Like I said, never again if I can help it.

Also I just returned from Paris on Sunday and arriving at YOW was a pleasure. I have a Nexus card and no luggage and within 2 minutes of exiting the plane was at pillar 12 waiting for my Uber.

Yes my 2022/23 European trips have mostly started in Montreal or even Toronto (early in 2021), one Air Canada via YUL that actually went well and the last was via EWR. AF not having a base here also can cause problems. My colleague missed her connection in Paris and then had to fly AF to Toronto and end up on the Air Canada connection anyway (with no sign of the bags of course.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by solo748

Higher LF is always better than lower, but it's the yield that matters most.

80% in prime summer is not that encouraging. What seems (anecdotally) encouraging is the AF fares exYOW seem to stay high. 80% and relatively strong yield is excellent.

This fall/winter is going to be fascinating. I have no idea who's going to fill the plane but let's hope business dealings in Europe and beyond buy refundable fares or front-cabin fares. Let's hope wealthy Ottawa residents on an African safari treat themselves to business cabin, let's hope the local market to UK realize it's far smarter to go direct to CDG and risk misconneciton there vs being stuck in YYZ/YUL due to the pisspoor Rapidair service.

I don't know that rioting in Paris and brutal heatwaves across southern Europe have made for a "prime" summer. Personally, I doubt I'll ever visit Europe again in summer - it's more manageable in spring/fall and for the worst of the worst (Venice, Lisbon, Barcelona, etc) I'd probably only consider going in January or February.

[BenYOW]

$11M in funding is being provided through the National Trade Corridors Fund for a new cargo facility for Canadian North, doubling their cargo capacity at the airport. Based on the comments shared during the announcement, Canadian North moves over 25M kg of cargo up north from Ottawa annually.

Today, the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez, announced an investment of up to $11 million under the National Trade Corridors Fund. This investment will be used to build a new cargo facility for Canadian North, the Inuit-owned airline. To further enhance this commitment, Canadian North will be matching the Government of Canada’s investment, bringing the total combined funding for this project up to $22 million.

This warehouse will be located on the grounds of Ottawa International Airport and will reduce delays in cargo handling capacity and increase connectivity between different modes of transportation at the airport. For example, the project would expand the truck loading area, where queues have created congestion in the past. In total, this project will also double the capacity for Canadian North in Ottawa.

In addition, this new facility will adopt environmentally friendly technologies and expand energy-efficient refrigeration and freezing areas to reduce waste and preserve essential goods destined for the Canadian Arctic. The facility will also have a backup power system to ensure service continuity during severe weather events.

[Dominion301]

Here's the link to the NTCF PR: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...868098864.html

Today's departure count: 73

Today's cancellation count (so far): 3