When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[JohnTitor]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

By what measure? Certainly not by economic output.

Metropolitan GDP US$ (2022)

Chicago $832.9 billion
Toronto $349.2 billion
Detroit $305.4 billion

Granted Chicago has a population about 35% larger but its economic output is well more than twice the size. Metropolitan Detroit has a smaller population but a larger per capita product.

The news is quite grim on the economic front. Numbers were released yesterday with respect to national economic growth in 2023. While the economy grew by 1% it grew much slower than the population (2.5%). Canada's GDP per capita has declined for five consecutive quarters. The OECD also predicts Canada will have the lowest growth amongst the developed economies for the next several decades, though attaching very much weight to long term projections is unwise. It does look though that barring some very unforeseen event Canada will slip out of the top 30 in GDP per capita (PPP) by 2030.

Greater Montreal's GDP was $170.7 billion in 2022.

Incorrect as usual. The definition of “metropolitan” between Canada and the US is different. You cannot compare GDP based of two different criteria.

Either use the Canadian definition or use the American definition.

The defined Chicago Metropolitan Combined Statistical Area (we’ll just call it “Chicagoland” for short) includes nearly 11,000 square miles (over 28,000 sq km) of Chicago itself, suburbs, and satellite cities. In contrast, the defined Greater Toronto Area (GTA) only covers a little more than 7100 sq km (2750 sq mi), and leaves out some outer suburbs and all of the satellite cities that would need to be included to make for reasonable comparison.

To get to an apples-to-apples comparison, we need to look at the Golden Horseshoe instead of the GTA, which covers 31,500 sq km (12,200 sq mi) and includes the GTA along with the rest of the outer suburbs and satellite cities. When we do that, we get around 9.8 million people in the Golden Horseshoe which brings us right about even with the Chicagoland area.

In 2019 the Golden Horseshoe GDP was roughly US $430 billion. We don’t have statistics yet for the 2023 and beyond according to StatsCan, but the GGH is economically growing much faster than that of Chicagoland.

It’s only a matter of when not if….

"Statistics Canada. Table 36-10-0468-01 Gross domestic product (GDP) at basic prices, by census metropolitan area (CMA) (x 1,000,000)". Statistics Canada.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=3610046801

[someone123]

I'm skeptical of metropolitan GDP figures and this Toronto-Chicago comparison. It makes me think of the story of Ireland reporting something like 25% GDP growth one year because Apple's European HQ was there and Apple sold a lot of made in China and designed in Cupertino iPhones to Europeans. In practice, the median person in Ireland isn't very well off. I don't think such effects are as major on the level of a country like the USA, but they could be very large on the level of a city like Chicago. I wonder how something like McDonald's is counted toward Chicago's GDP. Can you have dollars collected in other jurisdictions and profits paid to shareholders anywhere in the world somehow contribute to that Chicago figure, or is there a way to separate out the value added just by the HQ and local operations?

[WhipperSnapper]

Directly comparing in USD funds is also misrepresentative. The large ticket item that matter to a family...


Chicago

Median Income: $72,000
Media Home Price $400,000
Average Rent $2,250

Toronto

Median Income $84,000
Median Home Price $880,000
Average Rent $2,600


It doesn't make any sense that if Montreal desired to follow Toronto's path in the mid 1970s that it wouldn't be the largest metro or a closely contested largest metro in the nation. One thing that has become clearer is Torontonians struggling with other Canadians not wanting to live in Toronto.

[GreaterMontréal]

It's still possible to buy a respectable detached in the largest Montreal suburb for less than $600k.

[JohnTitor]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Directly comparing in USD funds is also misrepresentative. The large ticket item that matter to a family...


Chicago

Median Income: $72,000
Media Home Price $400,000
Average Rent $2,250

Toronto

Median Income $84,000
Median Home Price $880,000
Average Rent $2,600


It doesn't make any sense that if Montreal desired to follow Toronto's path in the mid 1970s that it wouldn't be the largest metro or a closely contested largest metro in the nation. One thing that has become clearer is Torontonians struggling with other Canadians not wanting to live in Toronto.

The mental gymnastics is unreal.

[MolsonExport]

The only thing pissed off is the average Montrealer and their inability to view themselves for what they truly are. A nice mid tier city that was surpassed by its more ambitious and successful rival down the 401.

Huh?

Where are you getting this from? Needlessly combative, as is your above post.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by JohnTitor

Which decade are you living in?

Meanwhile in 2023…

Euromonitor International’s report reveals world’s Top 100 City Destinations for 2023
https://www.euromonitor.com/press/pr...tions-for-2023

While no Canadian cities made it to the top 20 spots, three destinations did get a mention a bit further down the ranking. Toronto took the top spot for Canadian cities, placing 30th, followed by Vancouver (51) and Montreal (68).

The only thing pissed off is the average Montrealer and their inability to view themselves for what they truly are. A nice mid tier city that was surpassed by its more ambitious and successful rival down the 401.

This growing inferiority complex in Montreal has been quite interesting to say the least. People in Montreal are constantly trying to compare themselves to Toronto, while people in Toronto just view Montreal as another nice city to visit.

It’s time to accept reality.

Don’t be so insecured, Montrealars have only nice things to say about Toronto, we love you. xx

[MonctonRad]

Les Montrealais made the conscious choice that being French was more important than being first. They are quite comfortable in this decision. So be it.

[Zeej]

There's a lot more to being a good or great city than having the largest population or largest economy. Those things help to an extent, but they're far from everything, especially when you're comparing cities that are already big and relatively prosperous.

Also, Montreal loves Toronto, we just hate the Leafs (pretty sure Toronto does too)!

[MonctonRad]

Everyone hates the Maple Laffs.........

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

"previous:

Everyone hates the Maple Laffs.........

Even when people disagree on everything else, we can all agree on that...

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

"previous:

Everyone hates the Maple Laffs.........

You mean, the Marble Loafs?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

You mean, the Marble Loafs?

People hate marble loaf?

[MolsonExport]

[Build.It]

Montreal lands in 17th, between Boston and Seattle, for metropolitan population (Canada and USA only). Top end of mid-tier, but mid-tier nonetheless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._by_population

[MolsonExport]

It isn't just about population. I will take the attractions, ambience, and other attributes of Montreal over any similarly-sized American city. Nothing "mid-tiered" about Montreal's attractions and ambience.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It isn't just about population. I will take the attractions, ambience, and other attributes of Montreal over any similarly-sized American city. Nothing "mid-tiered" about Montreal's attractions and ambience.

Absolutely. Size matters but it's not everything. Montreal is one of the premier cities on the continent, period. Just looking at population size or even economic output often leads to conclusions that don't square with their global status.

According to the Globalization and World Rankings Research Institute (2022), America was home to 11 Alpha Cites. 5 were from the United States, 2 from Canada, with 1 each from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. It's just one study based on its own specific metrics but it does speak to how population size isn't everything.

Population size correlates to global standing but it's not the only factor that fuels a city's cultural, political, and economic reach around the world. Some cities have a huge international profile despite being relatively small. Amsterdam only has 2.5 million yet it's ranked above Mexico City, São Paulo, and Chicago. Only 3 US cities (NY, LA, Chicago) placed ahead of Melbourne, Australia's #2 city.

Montreal owes its position to being the 2nd largest Canadian metro, importance to the francophone world, international events, and numerous legacy institutions that are holdovers from a time when it was the economic, cultural, and political centre of Canada. Montreal is a very cosmopolitan place. Houston, Dallas, Miami, Atlanta, and DC are all larger than Montreal but sit further down the list.


2022 Global Cities Ranking (America)

Alpha++
1. New York

Alpha
2. Los Angeles
3. Toronto
4. Mexico City
5. Sao Paulo
6. Chicago

Alpha-
7. Buenos Aires
8. San Francisco
9. Montreal
10. Santiago
11. Boston

Beta+
12. Washington DC
13. Dallas
14. Miami
15. Houston
16. Atlanta
17. Vancouver

Beta
18. Denver
19. Montevideo
20. Philadelphia
21. Seattle
22. Rio de Janeiro
23. Panama City

Beta-
24. Calgary
25. Monterrey
26. Caracas
27. San Jose
28. Tampa
29. Minneapolis
30. San Diego
31. Guatemala City
32. Quito
33. San Salvador
34. George Town
35. Detroit

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/microsites/geography/gawc/

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Build.It

Montreal lands in 17th, between Boston and Seattle, for metropolitan population (Canada and USA only). Top end of mid-tier, but mid-tier nonetheless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._by_population

Pleased to know that based on your criteria of population only (ignoring the fact that MSAs and CMAs have different inclusion criteria), Inland Empire is also mid-tier.

When driving around Downtown San Bernardino, marvelling at the beauty of its vacant storefronts and boarded up houses and total absence of people, I really do get the impression that it too is on the same level as Boston and Seattle.

Glad to know we agree.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Zeej

There's a lot more to being a good or great city than having the largest population or largest economy. Those things help to an extent, but they're far from everything, especially when you're comparing cities that are already big and relatively prosperous.

Also, Montreal loves Toronto, we just hate the Leafs (pretty sure Toronto does too)!

Yep, it's like comparing Toronto's Madrid to Montreal's Barcelona. There's no clear "winner".

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yep, it's like comparing Toronto's Madrid to Montreal's Barcelona. There's no clear "winner".

To each their own, their are definitely some that prefer Toronto due to its 'bigness' just like there are some that prefer Montreal for deliberately not going down that road.

But more generally, population really doesn't appear to be the deciding factor on which large city is better than the other. Most people have no idea what the populations even are, or many took note of a milestone that was reached 10 years ago and continue to quote it as current, revealing how absurd it is to use this as a top metric for overall comparison.