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  #841  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2016, 10:28 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
They should really have a compromise. Use most of Devcore's elements, let Melnyk own the arena (which is all he wants really), and perhaps drop some of the attractions.
Yeah, a dim sum menu of the best elements of each could be far better than either.
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  #842  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2016, 10:47 PM
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It's a lot to absorb, but my first reaction is that the RendezVous (Melnyk) bid is relying on gimmicks with the holographic light shows.

The DCDLS bid is more in the vein of community-building (it includes seniors' and students' housing areas, plus an elementary school, retail such as the Farm Boy and the new YMCA). These additions are critical to maintaining a residential population to keep the area vibrant. It has to be more than a pleasant weekend draw for folks from the suburbs. So I'm leaning much more toward the DCDLS bid.

They both have some stunning features, though, and lots of new attractions for the area.
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  #843  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2016, 10:50 PM
Temperance Temperance is offline
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I'm more impressed by these proposals than I thought I would be. There are parts that are quite gimicky (in terms of the attractions) and I'm not a fan of the architectural style/plan of the towers in the Illumination proposal but I'm glad both proposals are ambitious.
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  #844  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2016, 10:56 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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I'm still looking into them, but I like aspects of both. Some interesting buildings, some regular. Some things seem like gimmicks.

It still doesn't seem like a lot of development though. Roads still seem wide and space between buildings and neighbourhoods still seems too big and disconnected. I wish that it were more mixed and denser. It just doesn't seem like enough.

But I like what they're doing with the canal thing (does it count as an aqueduct?) It's sort of like our little Cheonggyecheon.
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  #845  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2016, 11:57 PM
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DevCore plans: the mixed use district looks fantastic. It's the strongest element of their proposal, but it feels like an after-thought. The main component feels a lot weaker to me, though. I don't like how tourist-focused it is since it relies on tourists being there to succeed. As nice as it looks on paper, I have a bad feeling the entire area could end up feeling empty and abandoned instead. It kind of has a Niagara Falls feel to me, which isn't really something I feel Ottawa should strive for.

Rendezvous Plans: very much focused on building neighbourhoods. Generally speaking, there is far less flashy stuff in here; but the bones seem far more solid. Arena + Sensplex + Central Library - these are strong anchor tenants, but the strongest aspect seems to be the mix of commercial and residential components throughout the site. There are aspects here for "all Canadians" and they'll have a reason to come here, because there will also be Ottawans living and shopping there too. The aquaduct looks fantastic. I do feel like the overhead plan view they use present something very different from their renders, which have a much more organic feel to them. And the arena looks amazing. I love that design. It is clearly well planned out too - central to both stations and a space well-equipped to handle post-game crowds. There will also be the commercial presence in the area with the ability to immediately handle pre- and post-game crowds.
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  #846  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:06 AM
bartlebooth bartlebooth is offline
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
DevCore plans: the mixed use district looks fantastic. It's the strongest element of their proposal, but it feels like an after-thought. The main component feels a lot weaker to me, though. I don't like how tourist-focused it is since it relies on tourists being there to succeed. As nice as it looks on paper, I have a bad feeling the entire area could end up feeling empty and abandoned instead. It kind of has a Niagara Falls feel to me, which isn't really something I feel Ottawa should strive for.

Rendezvous Plans: very much focused on building neighbourhoods. Generally speaking, there is far less flashy stuff in here; but the bones seem far more solid. Arena + Sensplex + Central Library - these are strong anchor tenants, but the strongest aspect seems to be the mix of commercial and residential components throughout the site. There are aspects here for "all Canadians" and they'll have a reason to come here, because there will also be Ottawans living and shopping there too. The aquaduct looks fantastic. I do feel like the overhead plan view they use present something very different from their renders, which have a much more organic feel to them. And the arena looks amazing. I love that design. It is clearly well planned out too - central to both stations and a space well-equipped to handle post-game crowds. There will also be the commercial presence in the area with the ability to immediately handle pre- and post-game crowds.
Precisely why this plan to me is significantly better than the other. The Devcore plan is extremely theme park to me.
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  #847  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:09 AM
Kibb Kibb is offline
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Wow... these bids are quite different.

My first impressions lean me towards DCDLS, it's much more ambitious. Maybe to much? I dont know.

One is building an event space/ arena / tourism / public district with a smaller neighbourhood.

The other arena with a whole lot of neighbourhood.
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  #848  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:20 AM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
DevCore plans: the mixed use district looks fantastic. It's the strongest element of their proposal, but it feels like an after-thought. The main component feels a lot weaker to me, though. I don't like how tourist-focused it is since it relies on tourists being there to succeed. As nice as it looks on paper, I have a bad feeling the entire area could end up feeling empty and abandoned instead. It kind of has a Niagara Falls feel to me, which isn't really something I feel Ottawa should strive for.

Rendezvous Plans: very much focused on building neighbourhoods. Generally speaking, there is far less flashy stuff in here; but the bones seem far more solid. Arena + Sensplex + Central Library - these are strong anchor tenants, but the strongest aspect seems to be the mix of commercial and residential components throughout the site. There are aspects here for "all Canadians" and they'll have a reason to come here, because there will also be Ottawans living and shopping there too. The aquaduct looks fantastic. I do feel like the overhead plan view they use present something very different from their renders, which have a much more organic feel to them. And the arena looks amazing. I love that design. It is clearly well planned out too - central to both stations and a space well-equipped to handle post-game crowds. There will also be the commercial presence in the area with the ability to immediately handle pre- and post-game crowds.
My thoughts exactly.
Hopefully Rendevouz can animate Albert street, similar to what Devcore has in their plans. Right now it looks terrible. As well as work around parkway. Too wide and disconnecting from the War museum.
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  #849  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:22 AM
ChampagnePapi ChampagnePapi is offline
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I agree that some things seem gimmicky, but I don’t think the brewsuem is as ridiculous as it seems. There are similar attractions that I’ve been to in other cities like the Heineken experience (Amsterdam) and the Guinness factory (Dublin) and they were pretty good.

The brewseum could actually be fairly practical and could attract more locals than tourists if it includes a substantial bar area to serve sens fans on game days. Also, the exhibition space in the brewseum doesn’t need to be very large like a typical museum and it could be designed to hold private events like corporate functions and weddings. I know people aren’t happy that its Molson, but projects like this only works with a big company and Molson ‘Canadian’ may have the most brand recognition for international tourists and could partner with the sens.

That being said, there are still lots of gimmicks in both proposals like holograms and lighting, but I really applaud Devcore for suggesting new and unusual ideas even if they are gimmicky. I worry that the Rendezvous bid could end up being like Lansdowne. Lively on games days, but condos and half empty restaurants most of the time.
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  #850  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibb View Post
Wow... these bids are quite different.

My first impressions lean me towards DCDLS, it's much more ambitious. Maybe to much? I dont know.

One is building an event space/ arena / tourism / public district with a smaller neighbourhood.

The other arena with a whole lot of neighbourhood.
The RendezVous LeBreton bid ("Illumi-Nation") is more attractive from the inside, where the aqueduct is visible. Very beautiful job of showing that in its best light. Unfortunately, from the outside, the development would look like not much more than block after block after block of high-rises. Condos and hotels. Just like the concrete canyon that we currently have downtown south of Parliament Hill. The only big draw would be the arena (possibly the library), and then... plazas, boardwalks, sidewalks... lots of places to stand or walk. Nothing else?

I'm not sure how I feel about the look of the other bid from Devcore. The undulating rooftops of the public buildings (the various pavilions) would symbolize the river and the whitecaps on the rapids, I'm guessing. The pavilions require many important tenants, and I want to hear how certain those tenants are so that we have a better sense of whether or not the development could succeed. Some nice proposed amenities, though, like the outdoor "bandshell", a manmade beach with an inclosed pool area for kids, beside an aquarium and planetarium. I like the fact that there'd be attractions linking indoors to the outdoors.

Without all the Devcore attractions, it'd remain a sleepy residential area, with one exception -- hockey and other events at the arena.
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  #851  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:36 AM
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I much prefer Devcore EXCEPT for one thing: the library. The Sens' library is a more interesting building.
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  #852  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:40 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Mugwumper View Post
The RendezVous LeBreton bid ("Illumi-Nation") is more attractive from the inside, where the aqueduct is visible. Very beautiful job of showing that in its best light. Unfortunately, from the outside, the development would look like not much more than block after block after block of high-rises. Condos and hotels. Just like the concrete canyon that we currently have downtown south of Parliament Hill.
Most of the "concrete canyon" (what's the matter with canyons?) has street-level presence. That is the one thing, more than any other, that is needed for LeBreton to succeed. Without it, it fails.
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  #853  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 12:59 AM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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RendezVous proposal:
-better connectivity and integration between the neighbourhoods and public attractions
-better use of the aqueduct space
-higher density
-burying the LRT is a huge benefit for the site
-love the idea of the Abilities Centre/Sensplex
-I don't think the lighting around the arena will be gimmicky, it could really add to the space
-could be too much road space - depends which blocks are pedestrianized and width of ROW (ideally car access blocks are narrow blocks for local traffic like in Vancouver )\

DCDLS proposal
-great job at connecting with Ottawa institutions (although many could easily partner with RendezVous)
-not sure all these attractions will work
-I like the pedestrian only spaces around the major attractions... buildings framing the pedestrian ways make sure they aren't too open. However some of them could be pretty dead in the winter as the site is less integrated than RendezVous
-better undestanding (or at least better explanation) of neighbourhood amenities

Both proposals
-we need to figure out how to better integrate with surrounding area... more burying of infrastructure? RendezVous will have an advantage with Trinity and Windmill on the team for creating better integration.
-NCC needs to use its monument space more efficiently
-we need better integration with the waterfront

Last edited by waterloowarrior; Jan 27, 2016 at 2:27 AM.
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  #854  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 1:18 AM
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AuxTown AuxTown is offline
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I don't know what to think. Both proposals have some really great design features and architecture! To me, Rendevous looks much more modern and, depending on the execution, it could be something really unique in Canada (light shows, holograms, etc). Devcore seems more tried and tested and I think the collection of attractions looks top-notch (do we really need a brewseum though?). Did anyone else notice that the Rendevous video shows some kind of light travelling across POW bridge as if to represent transit? Interesting. Should be an interesting year of public debate and private billionaire negotiations.
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  #855  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
DevCore plans: the mixed use district looks fantastic. It's the strongest element of their proposal, but it feels like an after-thought. The main component feels a lot weaker to me, though. I don't like how tourist-focused it is since it relies on tourists being there to succeed. As nice as it looks on paper, I have a bad feeling the entire area could end up feeling empty and abandoned instead. It kind of has a Niagara Falls feel to me, which isn't really something I feel Ottawa should strive for.

Rendezvous Plans: very much focused on building neighbourhoods. Generally speaking, there is far less flashy stuff in here; but the bones seem far more solid. Arena + Sensplex + Central Library - these are strong anchor tenants, but the strongest aspect seems to be the mix of commercial and residential components throughout the site. There are aspects here for "all Canadians" and they'll have a reason to come here, because there will also be Ottawans living and shopping there too. The aquaduct looks fantastic. I do feel like the overhead plan view they use present something very different from their renders, which have a much more organic feel to them. And the arena looks amazing. I love that design. It is clearly well planned out too - central to both stations and a space well-equipped to handle post-game crowds. There will also be the commercial presence in the area with the ability to immediately handle pre- and post-game crowds.
I agree completely. The Rendezvous plan seems far more likely to be active all the time, and I love the aquaduct. I find it hard to believe that the "attractions" proposed by DevCore are all sustainable, and I can see those public areas being barren and windswept in the winter - overall, they are just too over-engineered for my liking. The basic open square proposed by Rendezvous seems far more flexible and far more likely to be in use year-round. Perfect for Bluesfest and the events that already take place in the area.
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  #856  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
I don't know what to think. Both proposals have some really great design features and architecture! To me, Rendevous looks much more modern and, depending on the execution, it could be something really unique in Canada (light shows, holograms, etc). Devcore seems more tried and tested and I think the collection of attractions looks top-notch (do we really need a brewseum though?). Did anyone else notice that the Rendevous video shows some kind of light travelling across POW bridge as if to represent transit? Interesting. Should be an interesting year of public debate and private billionaire negotiations.
What I noticed was the Devcore project had the Trillium line ending at Bayview while the Rendezvous project had the rail line continuing across the river to Gatineau. The light show on the POW bridge just seemed to reinforce the idea of extending rail transit across the river. I also liked the idea of burying the Confederation LRT as shown in the Rendezvous project as it makes access from one side the tracks to the other much more accessible.
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  #857  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:13 AM
m0nkyman m0nkyman is offline
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I'm leaning towards the Sens bid. The blocks are smaller, and more of a human scale. The draws are realistic, and fit into the community. They've buried the LRT through most of it, to make sure that the site isn't bifurcated by the rail line and the waterway. As far as the building designs go, the idea was that each neighbourhood will have it's own character as it is developed, so they blocked out the massing without going into real detail on design. And they've partnered with CCOC to put in affordable housing, which is a plus in my books.

The Devcore proposal has way more whizbang features, but the blocks are too large, the concentration of wide towers at the north will leave the pedestrian areas in a shadowed wind tunnel for much of the year, and the east west block lengths are much longer. I also worry about what we will do when/if some of the attractions don't work. What would we put in the automobile attraction if it fails?

And when I asked about parking and traffic management, the Sens said they would only have 500 parking spots for the arena, and the Devcore people dodged the question.
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  #858  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:17 AM
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Wow, Devcore's looks like a destination! With so much tourist attractions & community elements (algonquin auto, French elementary school, outdoor bandshell), I feel like I want to go there. Could it be too good to be true?

Rendezvous' presentation looks much better, with an actual map of where things can be. Does naming partnering companies in the last page (with recognizable names) make them more credible?

At the end of the day, it's a bit like hiring a contractor. Different companies might make suggestions on what to do, but at the end of the day, which bid has a better business proposal & companies with good track records?

What's the difference in resulting ownership structure, costs, proportion of option lands with soil remediation, etc? Am I the only one who doesn't know whether these are like 100 year leases for $1, whether public spaces like libraries & parkspace would come under City ownership after construction, etc?
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  #859  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Buggys View Post

What's the difference in resulting ownership structure, costs, proportion of option lands with soil remediation, etc? Am I the only one who doesn't know whether these are like 100 year leases for $1, whether public spaces like libraries & parkspace would come under City ownership after construction, etc?
On the Devcore website (http://lebretonreimagined.ca/project/#commitments) they state that 55% of the land in their proposal will remain in public use, "in the hands of all Canadians". I'm guessing that the buildings would be the property of the developers and would be leased... or would the city have the option of buying specific parts of the property from the developers at some point? E.g., a library? Or would the school board own the school property? Not sure how that would work, but those are just slices out of a very large pie.
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  #860  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2016, 2:35 AM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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here is a compilation of news articles from OttWatch
http://ottwatch.ca/story/48/lebreton...ory-collection

Strange to see Jon Willing writing in the Citizen and Bruce Garrioch interviewing Kelly Egan
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