Winnipeg Construction VIII

[trueviking]

Well, I hope your feelings are consistent for all the other road infrastructure we build in the city. If a private business or land owner stands to gain, they should pay for it. Could really help cut the cost of those train underpasses and that Kenaston widening. About a billion dollars alone. I'm sure Canadian tire and Costco would be happy to cover some of that.

[trueviking]

It drives me crazy that if something isn't seen as a mega silver bullet save the world project it is considered 'meh'.

Things add up. That's how you build a city. The effect it has had is indisputable.

To me, this is a piece of a very important puzzle to bring life back to our city centre.

If It was a mistake for 40 years why would we want to live through that mistake for 80 years.

The importance of portage and main is not as a public square for functions, it is a connective crossroads between areas in the downtown. That is far more important than celebrating playoff games for the jets.

Maybe if we built a good urban quality in the downtown we could have a residential real estate market that didn't need subsidies and we could use that money for things like busses. Portage and main is a big part of that.

I guarantee when it is opened the effect ten years down the road will be great. We will wonder what the fuss was about and laugh at ourselves for actually closing off one of our most important civic places to people for two generations.

[Bluenote]

Opening it will honestly do what? Do you think people will flock to this windy corner to see what exactly?
As for businesses opening. Please show me where? There is no room for that except maybe the main floor of the old TD tower.
Btw all those stores you speak of are underground. What's the difference? They are doing good the ones that are there. Should they now suffer because a few of you want to see the street open? You need to look at all sides here. Not just the towers but the smaller businesses all ready set up underground.



Like I said earlier. The corner needs to be cleaned up. And the entrances fixed and they need to be bright and easy for handi cap people.

[beatlesque]

Originally Posted by trueviking

We will wonder what the fuss was about and laugh at ourselves for actually closing off one of our most important civic places to people for two generations.

Yes. Living outside WPG it seems laughable that this is even a debate.

Even if no one ever ended up crossing it, as some seem to feel, it is symbolically absurd that it is barricaded. And all to divert people to some tiny underground mall.

[beatlesque]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

Opening it will honestly do what? Do you think people will flock to this windy corner to see what exactly?

If hardly anyone is going to flock to this windy corner, how much existing business traffic is actually going to be lost? If it's cold, presumably people would still go underground.

[windypeg]

There are other intersections in the downtown where street level businesses coexist with the skywalks, that can work at Portage and Main too. As for people flocking to the corner no one expects the corner itself to be a tourist attraction, it is however a critical strategic pedestrian link between the forks, the Exchange and the shed and would be used as such if it was open.

I also don't know why people try to deny that this corner is a special place that is important to Winnipegs identity. Despite how hostile it is to pedestrians it's still the place people chose to go celebrate things like the jets coming back - not the forks, not old market square, P&M is still the quintessential winnipeg place despite how barren it is. Imagine what it could be like open

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

How can anyone suggest that there has been no impact on pushing pedestrians away from the surface of the earth? The area has thousands of people there every day yet empty storefronts are everywhere.

Within two blocks of Portage and Main there are almost no empty store fronts, the one big exception is the Deerman Building on Portage Ave that had the ill conceived idea of converting everything, including the main floor commercial space, to condos.

Get out and go for a walk at Portage and Main at lunch time. In the summer the plaza at 201 Portage Ave is packed with people eating from the hot dog cart and enjoying the entrainment. The Subway across the street is one of the busiest in the city and it is not on the protected walk way. Around the corner on Notre Dame is White Star who does as brisk business year around. Coming back onto Main St there is both Whiskey Dix and Fox and the Fiddle, but you know this area is a black hole. On the east side the Richardson building essentially fronts onto the east Exchange which has many successful business. As for the Deerman Building -- before running into operational issues it was home to Soup Pierre which attracted a steady stream of foot traffic even in cold months of winter.

Portage and Main being closed to pedestrians is not the death of the neighbourhood that people try to make it out to be. Having been there and seen the activity first hand the only conclusion I am left with is people thinking differently have clearly never been to the corner on foot.

[trueviking]

I invite you to walk around portage and main the other 23 hours a day.....again...this is not about the lunch time crowd five days a week, three months a year....which is clearly your frame of reference.

soup pierre has been gone for five years...I think you should look at the empty spaces once again....did you notice the massive parking lot you passed before you got to whisky dix?

[drew]

It perplexes me that the re-opening of P&M has so many people here drawing a line in the sand. And not only drawing that line, but standing on the side that is particularly at odds with a topic that I would have assumed to be a decent amount of consensus here.

To me, this really seems like a no-brainer, and it baffles me that there is as much hostility to this plan on here. Especially with arguments about traffic.

This 40 year old experiment has obviously had a hand in the deterioration of this corner. Let's stop the insanity, which keeping it closed for another 40 years is. You know, expecting something to change, by always doing the same thing...

[esquire]

^ Winnipeg was never exactly known for being at the vanguard when it comes to embracing change. We're pretty good at finding a boatload of reasons not to do something.

The sad thing about the underground crossing is that Portage and Main has almost been eliminated from public consciousness... what used to be the hub of the entire city is now barren and deserted at street level. Even what little happens there now feels like it's inspired by the old days... "The Jets are back! Let's gather at Portage and Main like they did when Ben Hatskin signed Bobby Hull!"

What should be a natural gathering point is now an embarrassment. But for some reason we're firmly committed to sticking with a bad 1970s planning decision.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Winnipeg was never exactly known for being at the vanguard when it comes to embracing change. We're pretty good at finding a boatload of reasons not to do something.

The sad thing about the underground crossing is that Portage and Main has almost been eliminated from public consciousness... what used to be the hub of the entire city is now barren and deserted at street level. Even what little happens there now feels like it's inspired by the old days... "The Jets are back! Let's gather at Portage and Main like they did when Ben Hatskin signed Bobby Hull!"

What should be a natural gathering point is now an embarrassment. But for some reason we're firmly committed to sticking with a bad 1970s planning decision.

I am not against it. I am against this idea is going to be a game changer.
You say in the 70s it was a hub. Well so was the Bay and Eatons and a handful of others. Movie theatres were also big downtown in the 70's. North main wasn't the poor area it is now ( notice main still has pedestrians and didn't seem to retain its lustre). Notice the theatres also lost their lustre. Notice Eatons is gone and the Bay is being held on by a shoe string ( the Bay also on a very busy pedestrian corner ).

Point here is all that's at portage and main is offices. Don't drag the exchange into this as its not portage and main. The exchange is its own entity, same as the lunch hour crew from the offices. I also may add the food court both under the TD tower and in WPG square are packed by those towers office workers. But you cannot just blink and put them on the surface as there is no place to even put them. Plus they wouldn't last on top anyway. Soup Peirre is gone and was a hotspot before. It's on the surface and has pedestrians.

As for the comments about people will use it to get to the forks, false. People drive to the forks. Or use the river walk In from st b. They don't want to walk by three huge bulky towers that give back nothing at street level.

Also this huge bulky towers are one of the reasons it's a dead spot. Everyone compares other corners. Well those corners have smaller building that can or could have smaller stores on the main floor. PNM is like having 3 warehouses on the corners. Not that inviting.

Do I want the corner fixed up YES!!!!!! Would I like to see the ugly stairs and elevators etc completely redone ? Yes. I'd love to see entrances with glass roofs to let sunlight into the lower level. I'd like to see the ugly concrete gone and something nice in its place that looks good year round and around the clock. Led lighting that changes colour etc. That alone would spur more to the area then just opening it up and thinking the office workers are going to bring all sorts of business to the area.

Last but not least. It's NOT 1970. Don't compare to the past. Downtown from the 1970's to now is totally different and so is PnM. In 1970 you did not have all these towers either you just had the Richardson.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I invite you to walk around portage and main the other 23 hours a day.....again...this is not about the lunch time crowd five days a week, three months a year....which is clearly your frame of reference.

soup pierre has been gone for five years...I think you should look at the empty spaces once again....did you notice the massive parking lot you passed before you got to whisky dix?

The area is busy other times of day when the office staff are about. The notion that opening the corner in an office district to pedestrians is suddenly going to change how much activity in has in the nighttime and on weekends is ignoring the facts. The corner is populated by large office buildings and those aren't going away regardless of what occurs at the street level. So again, we come back to opening the corner largely being for lost tourists staying at the Fairmont...

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

I am not against it. I am against this idea is going to be a game changer.
You say in the 70s it was a hub. Well so was the Bay and Eatons and a handful of others. Movie theatres were also big downtown in the 70's. North main wasn't the poor area it is now ( notice main still has pedestrians and didn't seem to retain its lustre). Notice the theatres also lost their lustre. Notice Eatons is gone and the Bay is being held on by a shoe string ( the Bay also on a very busy pedestrian corner ).

Point here is all that's at portage and main is offices. Don't drag the exchange into this as its not portage and main. The exchange is its own entity, same as the lunch hour crew from the offices. I also may add the food court both under the TD tower and in WPG square are packed by those towers office workers. But you cannot just blink and put them on the surface as there is no place to even put them. Plus they wouldn't last on top anyway. Soup Peirre is gone and was a hotspot before. It's on the surface and has pedestrians.

As for the comments about people will use it to get to the forks, false. People drive to the forks. Or use the river walk In from st b. They don't want to walk by three huge bulky towers that give back nothing at street level.

Also this huge bulky towers are one of the reasons it's a dead spot. Everyone compares other corners. Well those corners have smaller building that can or could have smaller stores on the main floor. PNM is like having 3 warehouses on the corners. Not that inviting.

Do I want the corner fixed up YES!!!!!! Would I like to see the ugly stairs and elevators etc completely redone ? Yes. I'd love to see entrances with glass roofs to let sunlight into the lower level. I'd like to see the ugly concrete gone and something nice in its place that looks good year round and around the clock. Led lighting that changes colour etc. That alone would spur more to the area then just opening it up and thinking the office workers are going to bring all sorts of business to the area.

Last but not least. It's NOT 1970. Don't compare to the past. Downtown from the 1970's to now is totally different and so is PnM. In 1970 you did not have all these towers either you just had the Richardson.

Good post, hard to argue with folk who think opening something closed for 30 years will somehow bring back past glory when there is nothing left to bring back. This open Portage and Main call for "just because" only resonates with a very small minority who for all we know may have ulterior motives.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Good post, hard to argue with folk who think opening something closed for 30 years will somehow bring back past glory when there is nothing left to bring back. This open Portage and Main call for "just because" only resonates with a very small minority who for all we know may have ulterior motives.

And conversely, some people here are arguing to keep it closed "just because", and we KNOW there are ulterior motives to keeping it closed, and for closing it in the first place.

And how can you quantify a "small minority"? Have you conducted some research into this - or are you relying on an online poll?

[Urban recluse]

Hopefully in March when Artis reveals its plans for recladding 360 Main, mention of opening P&M will be highlighted.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by drew

And conversely, some people here are arguing to keep it closed "just because", and we KNOW there are ulterior motives to keeping it closed, and for closing it in the first place.

And how can you quantify a "small minority"? Have you conducted some research into this - or are you relying on an online poll?

The benefit of keeping it closed is for the majority, I would venture to guess that in an unbiased poll 80% of the respondents would feel this way. The vocal minority seems to be rallying for the opening against the wishes of a silent majority!

[Urban recluse]

I am sure the majority of people polled would say no to offering incentives for downtown residential development; that does not translate into smart policy.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by drew

And conversely, some people here are arguing to keep it closed "just because", and we KNOW there are ulterior motives to keeping it closed, and for closing it in the first place.

Let's spend your money (where the city gets its funding) on a project with no clear benefit. Saying P&M should stay closed is not "just because" but rather a justify your expenditure of the tax money you are collecting.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

I am sure the majority of people polled would say no to offering incentives for downtown residential development; that does not translate into smart policy.

People choose where to live, why should any area be subsidized at the expense of another. Build it and they might come isn't a sustainable policy.

[Urban recluse]

But "they" are coming. The vibrancy of a city's downtown is paramount, perhaps not to ignorant suburban heathens, but to city leaders, academics, architects, cultured individuals, worldwide it is.