Highways in Canada

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

He didn't say it wasn't. He was just simply saying the consortium that owns it is always expanding it to make sure that traffic is moving. Otherwise people wouldn't pay to use it if they were in 401-like traffic jams.

I point out the profit driven due to the fact that some might ignore such a stupid idea - a 99 year lease.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

If you count Thunder Bay - Nipigon Corridor and west of Kenora, then they may actually add up to 20 km/year.

Yes, but I am not talking about that direction. I was more pointing out the next time that the 417 will meet another freeway won't be till Sudbury, and just that section will take likely 50 years or more.

Originally Posted by wave46

I didn't know BC was so ambitious about Highway 1. I still think the 400 to Sudbury will be done before Highway 1 is done in BC, if I was a betting man.

The 417 will be done, uh, never probably.

Someone better with the BC website and government could answer that better, but, from what I am seeing, they are doing work along it in multiple areas. The same cannot be said about the 400, and even less about the 417.

And, no, I do not consider anything near Thunder Bay 417. There are few, if any controlled interchanges. When it opens, the speed does not change.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I point out the profit driven due to the fact that some might ignore such a stupid idea - a 99 year lease.

It was mindbogglingly stupid decision. Leased it for a pittance too.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

But it doesn’t stop us from drawing up plans just for show, anyway.
(Well, I hope that some parts do see the shovel hit the ground, eventually. MTO has 333 km of Highway 17 planned with publicly disclosed drawings. However, worst comes to worst, we can present everything just for show.)

Hey, this is a forum for dreaming/ambition, so why not?

If you enjoy it, do it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

But it doesn’t stop us from drawing up plans just for show, anyway.
(Well, I hope that some parts do see the shovel hit the ground, eventually. MTO has 333 km of Highway 17 planned with publicly disclosed drawings. However, worst comes to worst, we can present everything just for show.)

Originally Posted by wave46

Hey, this is a forum for dreaming/ambition, so why not?

If you enjoy it, do it.

Some parts of SSP don't like that.

Originally Posted by wave46

It was mindbogglingly stupid decision. Leased it for a pittance too.

Too bad there was no way to break the lease.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

Hey, this is a forum for dreaming/ambition, so why not?

If you enjoy it, do it.

Yea I only have 50 km left. Once I close that gap, I’ll let you guys know.

Some parts of SSP don't like that.

What’s that? Just for show or dreaming?

[craner]

For the record, I love “showing & dreaming” so Go Dengler Go!

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

What’s that? Just for show or dreaming?

I'm thinking he's referring to rail talk.

[Djeffery]

I didn't agree with selling off the 407 either, but I wonder if the province had kept it, what would it look like today? Would we be looking back at what a great highway it is? Isn't this kind of like looking at a house you sold over 20 years ago, seeing what it's worth today, and thinking you gave it away?

I heard Steven Del Duca on the Toronto Mike podcast yesterday mention it. Said Harris sold it for about $3B and it's worth over $13B today (and the lease is ironclad). But what would the 1998 version of the 407 be worth today? How much did the consortium put into it over that time? And how much would Ontario have put into it over that time themselves, and how much longer would the various extensions and widenings have taken? It would probably still end at highway 7 today if the province owned it, and the tolls would likely be as high (although fluctuate every election cycle until they creep up again).

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I didn't agree with selling off the 407 either, but I wonder if the province had kept it, what would it look like today? Would we be looking back at what a great highway it is? Isn't this kind of like looking at a house you sold over 20 years ago, seeing what it's worth today, and thinking you gave it away?

...

And how much would Ontario have put into it over that time themselves, and how much longer would the various extensions and widenings have taken? It would probably still end at highway 7 today if the province owned it, and the tolls would likely be as high (although fluctuate every election cycle until they creep up again).

Yeah, I doubt the tolls would be cheaper. I used to use the extremely busy 400-404 section at rush hour and the traffic was free flowing but the road was clearly busy. And that was in a section where the private operator had expanded the roadway from the original 3 lanes to 5 lanes. As expensive as it was, it was priced according to demand. If it was any cheaper, it would be congested, thus defeating its purpose.

[Dengler Avenue]

Most importantly, it would have become free in 2017, and we would have ended up with just another congested freeway in GTA.

The sucky thing is that the tolls for trucks are way too high. Whenever I see trucks on the 407, I can’t help but wonder how rich those trucking companies have to be in order to afford 407ETR. End to end during rush hour costs $261.76...

[Andy6]

Time is money.

[Djeffery]

Probably not a lot of trucks doing the end to end. But a lot do the partial trip. How much is a toll from say, 400 to the end in Burlington, compared to a 767 waiting at YHM for a couple truckloads of freight from UPS? Or an auto plant needing parts. Or a truck driver at risk of running out of legal operating hours while sitting in 401 gridlock. A truck sitting in traffic usually has a chain of consequences that a hundred bucks or more in tolls would easily avoid.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

Hey, this is a forum for dreaming/ambition, so why not?

If you enjoy it, do it.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Yea I only have 50 km left. Once I close that gap, I’ll let you guys know.

What’s that? Just for show or dreaming?

Originally Posted by craner

For the record, I love “showing & dreaming” so Go Dengler Go!

After working on this for 4 months, I'm happy to announce that I've finally finished (unofficially) examining the preliminary route options for ON-417 Extension across Ontario. Here's the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=11qPd7-lLyG1jFj9N6y9ioaWMABkC1Mj0&usp=sharing
445 km of Highway 17 either has been planned with publicly available route maps or even already has divided 4 lanes, so I've basically "taken over" the other 1519 km. You guys should take a look at the portion from Nipigon to Sault Sainte Marie.
(Warning: It may take 40 minutes to view everything.)

Okay I really need to get back to preparing for a job interview now. Maybe I will take a look for Highway 11 in September. I have tons of stuff on my plate right now. I've also reposted in my TCH thread in the Ontario subforum so you can drop your comments there instead. This way we can clear this thread a bit.

[MolsonExport]

The 407 tolls are absofuckinglutely ridiculous. How the fuck did we end up with such a shite state of affairs? A highway for the uber-rich and for people that can pass it off as a business expense. Meanwhile the 401 is just as horribly congested as ever. Fucking Harris.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I didn't agree with selling off the 407 either, but I wonder if the province had kept it, what would it look like today? Would we be looking back at what a great highway it is? Isn't this kind of like looking at a house you sold over 20 years ago, seeing what it's worth today, and thinking you gave it away?

I heard Steven Del Duca on the Toronto Mike podcast yesterday mention it. Said Harris sold it for about $3B and it's worth over $13B today (and the lease is ironclad). But what would the 1998 version of the 407 be worth today? How much did the consortium put into it over that time? And how much would Ontario have put into it over that time themselves, and how much longer would the various extensions and widenings have taken? It would probably still end at highway 7 today if the province owned it, and the tolls would likely be as high (although fluctuate every election cycle until they creep up again).

Sure, the consortium put money into it. Probably several billion dollars worth. It's a better highway than in 1998.

But....

They got a 99-year leave on a road with almost guaranteed growth and no competition. In the most densely populated area of the country. Its only competition was the almost maxed out highway to the south of it, which already suffered from frequent jams, likely to get worse in the future.

Anybody worth a salt could have calculated what it would have cost to build it out to maximum width through the GTA and the finite limit to which it could generate revenue. I suspect $3 billion for the lease is quite undervalued, given the length of the lease.

If the province had kept it, kept the tolls and even put a portion of the tolls back into dedicated improvements, they'd have a situation like any other Crown corporation that returns money to the government. You'd be taking a load off the taxpayer and loading it onto someone who could pay the premium. Think of the LCBO as a comparison.

But now we don't own it. At least not until 2097.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I'm thinking he's referring to rail talk.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I didn't agree with selling off the 407 either, but I wonder if the province had kept it, what would it look like today? Would we be looking back at what a great highway it is? Isn't this kind of like looking at a house you sold over 20 years ago, seeing what it's worth today, and thinking you gave it away?

I heard Steven Del Duca on the Toronto Mike podcast yesterday mention it. Said Harris sold it for about $3B and it's worth over $13B today (and the lease is ironclad). But what would the 1998 version of the 407 be worth today? How much did the consortium put into it over that time? And how much would Ontario have put into it over that time themselves, and how much longer would the various extensions and widenings have taken? It would probably still end at highway 7 today if the province owned it, and the tolls would likely be as high (although fluctuate every election cycle until they creep up again).

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, I doubt the tolls would be cheaper. I used to use the extremely busy 400-404 section at rush hour and the traffic was free flowing but the road was clearly busy. And that was in a section where the private operator had expanded the roadway from the original 3 lanes to 5 lanes. As expensive as it was, it was priced according to demand. If it was any cheaper, it would be congested, thus defeating its purpose.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Most importantly, it would have become free in 2017, and we would have ended up with just another congested freeway in GTA.

The sucky thing is that the tolls for trucks are way too high. Whenever I see trucks on the 407, I can’t help but wonder how rich those trucking companies have to be in order to afford 407ETR. End to end during rush hour costs $261.76...

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The 407 tolls are absofuckinglutely ridiculous. How the fuck did we end up with such a shite state of affairs? A highway for the uber-rich and for people that can pass it off as a business expense. Meanwhile the 401 is just as horribly congested as ever. Fucking Harris.

Originally Posted by wave46

Sure, the consortium put money into it. Probably several billion dollars worth. It's a better highway than in 1998.

But....

They got a 99-year leave on a road with almost guaranteed growth and no competition. In the most densely populated area of the country. Its only competition was the almost maxed out highway to the south of it, which already suffered from frequent jams, likely to get worse in the future.

Anybody worth a salt could have calculated what it would have cost to build it out to maximum width through the GTA and the finite limit to which it could generate revenue. I suspect $3 billion for the lease is quite undervalued, given the length of the lease.

If the province had kept it, kept the tolls and even put a portion of the tolls back into dedicated improvements, they'd have a situation like any other Crown corporation that returns money to the government. You'd be taking a load off the taxpayer and loading it onto someone who could pay the premium. Think of the LCBO as a comparison.

But now we don't own it. At least not until 2097.

Let's use 2 tolled roads. The Coquihalla Highway and the Cobequid Pass. When they were tolled, they were less than $5 a car. The Coquihalla is now free as the cost of the highway was paid off. The Cobequid still has a toll, but it is still around $5.

Now, before you get on some high horse about length, the Coquihalla is 190+ km long. The Cobequid is about 45 km long.

The 407 is about 150 km long and will cost you at least $20 the entire route....

This was a horrible idea. It still is. No government is willing to do anything about it.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Let's use 2 tolled roads. The Coquihalla Highway and the Cobequid Pass. When they were tolled, they were less than $5 a car. The Coquihalla is now free as the cost of the highway was paid off. The Cobequid still has a toll, but it is still around $5.

Now, before you get on some high horse about length, the Coquihalla is 190+ km long. The Cobequid is about 45 km long.

The 407 is about 150 km long and will cost you at least $20 the entire route....

This was a horrible idea. It still is. No government is willing to do anything about it.

As you said,

Even if you get screwed over, play your cards well still.

Though I’m not sure if Ontario provincial governments after Mike Harris really did that.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Let's use 2 tolled roads. The Coquihalla Highway and the Cobequid Pass. When they were tolled, they were less than $5 a car. The Coquihalla is now free as the cost of the highway was paid off. The Cobequid still has a toll, but it is still around $5.

Now, before you get on some high horse about length, the Coquihalla is 190+ km long. The Cobequid is about 45 km long.

The 407 is about 150 km long and will cost you at least $20 the entire route....

This was a horrible idea. It still is. No government is willing to do anything about it.

Two small corrections:
1. the toll was actually $10/car IIRC. Motorcycles were $5
2. the highways is certainly not 'free' by any stretch of the imagination. It is no charge to drives but there is a cost involved which now comes from general taxes. BC residents still pay, just in a different form.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Two small corrections:
1. the toll was actually $10/car IIRC. Motorcycles were $5
2. the highways is certainly not 'free' by any stretch of the imagination. It is no charge to drives but there is a cost involved which now comes from general taxes. BC residents still pay, just in a different form.

Oops on the charge. Bust still, $10 is chump change.

As far as who pays for it..... Who pays for the other thousands of roads? Oh, right, the taxpayers of the province.

My complaint about the 407 has always been the higher cost when compared with other tolled highways in Canada and USA.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Two small corrections:
1. the toll was actually $10/car IIRC. Motorcycles were $5
2. the highways is certainly not 'free' by any stretch of the imagination. It is no charge to drives but there is a cost involved which now comes from general taxes. BC residents still pay, just in a different form.

The bulk of the TCH in NB from the QC border to Salisbury (just west of Moncton) is actually a private freeway too. It was tolled for less than a year, but the NB citizenry was so hostile to the concept that the tolls were removed, and a lease agreement was negotiated with the company so that "shadow toll charges" would be payed for out of general government revenue for the remainder of the lease agreement, based on usage. I can't recall how long the agreement was for, but the highway will revert to public ownership at that point.

The company (MRDC) is responsible for snow removal and maintenance, and, while snow removal could be better, the roadway seems better maintained than comparable portions of the government highway system.

Oh, and as for the toll on the Cobequid Pass in NS, that's $4 one way for passenger vehicles. The toll on the Confederation Bridge to PEI is about $48.50 (round trip).