Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by combusean

I don't know if it's so much as busy bodyism (if that's a word) ... I would be very hesitant to have rented scooters anywhere near the Murphy Bridle Path, or just somehow geofence them from it entirely at the very least.

They should probably follow the light rail path on the other hand.

Of course the bridal path is not even in question but I'm guessing the whole area to include the 7's would be opposed. Not that I'd wanna be on a scooter on 7th St!

[exit2lef]

One of the key facets of the current Broadway Curve project is splitting I-10 into express lanes and local lanes. The latter are known as "collector-distributor" roads. I've known these were coming for a while, but it appears the first are now open.

Earlier this week, I was driving westbound on 1-10 from Warner Road in southern Tempe back to central Phoenix, and for the first time I saw signs indicating that the lanes towards the left were for through traffic and the lanes on the right were for 40th and 32nd streets. Sure enough, as I rounded the Broadway Curve, there was actually a hard split where the express lanes were one side of a barrier and the local lanes were on the other.

The two sets of parallel lanes rejoined just around the Salt River bridge and Sky Harbor Airport. Seeing the first of these in action is a sign that this project is progressing towards its scheduled completion next year.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

One of the key facets of the current Broadway Curve project is splitting I-10 into express lanes and local lanes. The latter are known as "collector-distributor" roads. I've known these were coming for a while, but it appears the first are now open.

Earlier this week, I was driving westbound on 1-10 from Warner Road in southern Tempe back to central Phoenix, and for the first time I saw signs indicating that the lanes towards the left were for through traffic and the lanes on the right were for 40th and 32nd streets. Sure enough, as I rounded the Broadway Curve, there was actually a hard split where the express lanes were one side of a barrier and the local lanes were on the other.

The two sets of parallel lanes rejoined just around the Salt River bridge and Sky Harbor Airport. Seeing the first of these in action is a sign that this project is progressing towards its scheduled completion next year.

I drive down to Tempe every Friday night on I-10 and get off at the Broadway exit. Every week that I make the trip and drive over the Broadway bridge, I'm amazed at how much has been completed from the previous week. It's quite impressive really. This is such a huge project and they are making really great progress on it.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Not sure if everyone is aware, but there is a petition on change.org for ending the reverse lanes on the 7's. I support this and have signed the petition. Not sure how far this could go, but over 2,700 have signed so far.

Here's the link for those that would like to sign:
https://chng.it/4mRZp27rFK

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

Not sure if everyone is aware, but there is a petition on change.org for ending the reverse lanes on the 7's. I support this and have signed the petition. Not sure how far this could go, but over 2,700 have signed so far.

Here's the link for those that would like to sign:
https://chng.it/4mRZp27rFK

There is such a disgustingly simple solution to this, and it’s infuriating that nobody in traffic can figure it out. You simply add electronic signs that indicate real time if the lane can be used.

[PHX31]

This is a pretty complex issue actually, one that I don't know the full history or details of completely. But, I would be in favor of getting rid of the reverse lanes mostly due to the number of accidents that happen because of them and because of driver/human error or ignorance or whatever. But excuse me if my eyes roll out of my head when seeing the name Stacey Champion.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

There is such a disgustingly simple solution to this, and it’s infuriating that nobody in traffic can figure it out. You simply add electronic signs that indicate real time if the lane can be used.

Having lighted signs with basic symbols is much more visual and keeps drivers that are unfamiliar with the reverse lanes from having to try and read the signs and figure out what time it is as they are driving which would help reduce crashes. However, that is only part of the problem. It doesn't solve the difficulty of turning left and does hurt businesses during rush hour. I myself have avoided many businesses during rush hour because I don't want to hassle with trying to turn from the left through lane. Also many people know that you are not supposed to turn left at certain spots and they do it anyway. Others simply drive through neighborhoods or business to cut-through which cause issues through neighborhoods. Unfortunately, there's no way to fix this without basically having constant police presence around to enforce it.

Originally Posted by PHX31

This is a pretty complex issue actually, one that I don't know the full history or details of completely. But, I would be in favor of getting rid of the reverse lanes mostly due to the number of accidents that happen because of them and because of driver/human error or ignorance or whatever. But excuse me if my eyes roll out of my head when seeing the name Stacey Champion.

I'm not sure who Stacey Champion is. Going off your reply, I'm assuming she's probably someone that's against a lot of stuff or rubs people the wrong way. Even if so, the petition is a sound one. Anything to get just...something done to improve the 7's would be a win...even if it's getting Phoenix to implement electronic signs as PHXFlyer11 suggested.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

I'm not sure who Stacey Champion is.

Annoying self-righteous "professional" Hack-tivist.

[combusean]

I absolutely hated the 7s when I lived downtown. Suburbanites have been sacrificing central city quality of life for their stupid commute times for too long. There isn't any bit of signage that will make them more tolerable or safer. Ditch these damn relics at long last.

[exit2lef]

I agree that the reverse lanes on the 7s need to go. In fact, they should have been retired the day SR51 opened about three decade ago. Between that freeway, I-17, and light rail, there are enough alternatives for north-south travel.

A change.org petition, however, seems like slacktivism. There's no guarantee that people signing it even live in Phoenix. The city council has a more formal process for citizen petitions. Maybe that would be more effective.

As for the activist behind this, my image of her was tarnished when she emerged as one of the leaders of the misguided "Save Roosevelt Row" movement circa 2015. That doesn't mean she's always wrong, but she may not be the best leader for this effort.

[combusean]

There was nothing misguided about "Save Roosevelt Row" ... the developer demolished a preservation-worthy building for a forgettable 4-story single-use apartment complex and as far as I can tell reneged on their other promises.

The city has a history of denying petitions anyways, and as far as I can tell would do the same because in its long history of "best run city into the ground" of letting Streets rule the place to the expense of everyone else, already considers it a resolved issue. When you read the study Streets references, it's full of self-serving traffic engineering porn that more or less only considers travel time and congestion as opposed to actual quality of life.

[PHX31]

Travel time and congestion are also a part of quality of life. And there's a lot to be said to avoid causing extra delay, or, to try to reduce delay for travelers. It's not just commuters getting to their offices faster, but transportation and commerce as a whole.

I agree, central city residents have dealt with this commute traffic to their detriment, but that's kind of what you sign up for living in a City. Trade offs. And let's just say the reverse lanes just turn into a typical center two-way left-turn lane and the lack of the additional lane capacity causes more congestion and backups.. The central city residents will still bear that brunt and maybe even moreso than if it was just left alone. Drastic reconfiguration of the 7s I'd imagine is a non-starter and no guarantee to do anything worthwhile on the whole other than make certain people feel good.

And don't discount the amount of complaining every citizen does regardless or status or class or location regarding traffic. Everyone thinks they are a traffic genius simply because they know how to drive a car, and everyone screams "Traffic!" when they want to complain about anything a city does. Cities hate receiving complaints from citizens and will do almost anything to avoid or resolve it. They probably think they'll start getting way more complaints if congestion increases if they did away with the reverse lanes.

To me the crashes that occur in the reverse lanes are the biggest problem. I haven't read the Streets study you reference, but I know someone who years ago was working on "debunking" at least the crash analysis part of the study.

Overall I'd be fine doing away with the reverse lanes. Hell, I worked on 7th Ave and lived on 7th St both south of Thomas Rd for years and years and years. I've dealt with them probably more than anyone on this forum. My 2nd story office window literally looks at the reverse lane and I've seen countless accidents occur through the years. More recently I've avoided I-17 congestion by commuting down 7th Avenue risking my life in the center suicide lane. I haven't had to do that for a few years, thankfully, although it was kind of fun in an exhilarating kind of way. But overall i understand why it's not such an easy thing to make a decision on for the City.

[combusean]

I don't see why the quality of life for suburbanites means more than the quality of life for central city commuters.

If this were "average" traffic, ie, what you would expect of anyone living in any reasonably large city's center, I would agree that that's something center city residents should put up with. But I would have happily traded somewhat more congestion (the 40% more figure they came up is utter nonsense) in exchange for improved access and safety.

But this is not average traffic. This is forced by the city through bad and obsolete design. In 1979 and 1982, there was one freeway and there were no practical alternatives. Phoenix has spent untold amounts of money building alternatives since, and keeping them around is just inertia. The city is just not the same since in pretty much every respect, from its past importance as the only employment center to people now also living there to people having any reason to come Downtown besides work to COVID shrinking traffic overall. I struggle to think of how Phoenix shares really anything in common with itself from 40+ years ago in this sorta thing.

https://www.phoenix.gov/streetssite/...ember_2021.pdf

is the study, and it's about what you'd expect from a bunch of traffic engineers and the junk "science" they rely on.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by combusean

I don't see why the quality of life for suburbanites means more than the quality of life for central city commuters.

If this were "average" traffic, ie, what you would expect of anyone living in any reasonably large city's center, I would agree that that's something center city residents should put up with. But I would have happily traded somewhat more congestion (the 40% more figure they came up is utter nonsense) in exchange for improved access and safety.

But this is not average traffic. This is forced by the city through bad and obsolete design. In 1979 and 1982, there was one freeway and there were no practical alternatives. Phoenix has spent untold amounts of money building alternatives since, and keeping them around is just inertia. The city is just not the same since in pretty much every respect, from its past importance as the only employment center to people now also living there to people having any reason to come Downtown besides work to COVID shrinking traffic overall. I struggle to think of how Phoenix shares really anything in common with itself from 40+ years ago in this sorta thing.

https://www.phoenix.gov/streetssite/...ember_2021.pdf

is the study, and it's about what you'd expect from a bunch of traffic engineers and the junk "science" they rely on.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as give QOL to one and take QOL from the other. Both suburbanites and those in the center city could benefit or be harmed similarly. And not every central city resident or commuter is the type of urbanista that wants to ride their bike to the coffee shop in peace in the morning. A good majority are normal working class people. Stuff like this would never cross their mind, they probably just want to get to their job as easily as possible, where ever and however that may be. Adding to congestion in the area would likely harm them more than anyone.

That study is much newer than what I thought was out there and isn't what I was referencing regarding the crash analysis/data. My comment about the crash analysis trying to be debunked was not related to this study.

I don't know why you are calling traffic engineering junk science. It's not as "exact" as certain other specific fields or as you may "feel" like it should be, but it is dealing with something as dynamic as driver/human behavior in a turbulent environment.

Take away a lane and what do you think will happen to travel time, congestion, and everything else? We're talking real world here, not utopian fairly lands where we just get everyone to ride light rail or bike or WFH or take a driverless uber for a mile or so.

[ASU Diablo]

Slowly moving along...

While on the topic...has anyone heard anything/rumors regarding Union Station redevelopment since it was purchased?

https://ktar.com/story/5552083/arizo...rail-planning/

The first federal funds have been allocated for reestablishing passenger rail service between Phoenix and Tucson, U.S. Rep. Greg Stanton of Arizona announced Tuesday.

The Arizona Department of Transportation was awarded $500,000 to help cover the costs of planning an Amtrak line between the state’s two largest cities, Stanton said in a press release.

The grant comes from the Federal Railroad Administration Corridor Identification and Development program, which was established through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

Slowly moving along...

While on the topic...has anyone heard anything/rumors regarding Union Station redevelopment since it was purchased?

https://ktar.com/story/5552083/arizo...rail-planning/

Same day as approval for Birghline between Vegas and LA

Any news on funding for I-11 or the Intercity ADOT project

(edited)

[MiEncanto]

As a central city commuter, I will fight hard to save the reverse lanes. They are for central Phx residents, not outside commuters, who use freeways.

Just because the city spends no effort or money investing in making them work doesn't mean they don't work. If Europeans can easily figure this out, so can we. We need activated signs, in both English and Spanish, with red X's and Green Arrows over lanes and it would work better.

What people don't talk about is how so much traffic is improved by light timing. Without dedicated left turn arrows, traffic throughput at intersections is improved dramatically.

Without that timing and traffic clearing, central phoenix would be carmegeddon every morning. Traffic is already backed up a half mile at some intersections in the morning such as Camelback and 7th St. Would you prefer it be a full mile?

The same folks who said traffic is no issue on central with LR because you have the 7s are now saying we don't need the 7s. It's bonkers. And the 51 and the 17 are already worse so that is no help.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

As a central city commuter, I will fight hard to save the reverse lanes. They are for central Phx residents, not outside commuters, who use freeways.

Just because the city spends no effort or money investing in making them work doesn't mean they don't work. If Europeans can easily figure this out, so can we. We need activated signs, in both English and Spanish, with red X's and Green Arrows over lanes and it would work better.

What people don't talk about is how so much traffic is improved by light timing. Without dedicated left turn arrows, traffic throughput at intersections is improved dramatically.

Without that timing and traffic clearing, central phoenix would be carmegeddon every morning. Traffic is already backed up a half mile at some intersections in the morning such as Camelback and 7th St. Would you prefer it be a full mile?

The same folks who said traffic is no issue on central with LR because you have the 7s are now saying we don't need the 7s. It's bonkers. And the 51 and the 17 are already worse so that is no help.

Are there some examples of reverse lanes in Europe with good signs and traffic management? It would be interesting to know what you're using as a basis of comparison.

In terms of dedicated left turn arrows, I think you're saying that you prefer not to have them. Okay, but what does that have to do with reverse lanes? You can have one without the other.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Are there some examples of reverse lanes in Europe with good signs and traffic management? It would be interesting to know what you're using as a basis of comparison.

In terms of dedicated left turn arrows, I think you're saying that you prefer not to have them. Okay, but what does that have to do with reverse lanes? You can have one without the other.

Yes they use them all over Europe but in particular in Germany where I lived they have parkways that use them. I also saw them in Luxembourg. They use overhead light-up lane-based signage and it's very obvious where you're supposed to be.

If we go to standard rules, cars will use the left turn lanes at intersections and unless they are dedicated left turn lights, they will pile up. So instead of the rapid intersection clearing we have now, we lose a lane PLUS about 7 seconds at each light for left turning to complete. If you don't have dedicated left arrows and just have green lights for straight traffic, there will be chaos of backed up traffic waiting to turn left which causes other issues.

My point is the light timing is a considerable feature of the current system that is often forgot. And it's not like you can simply say 'just keep the total green light time the same'. There is a avalanche of cars ALSO waiting to go east/west on all those streets so you can't make their lives even worse.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

If we go to standard rules, cars will use the left turn lanes at intersections and unless they are dedicated left turn lights, they will pile up. So instead of the rapid intersection clearing we have now, we lose a lane PLUS about 7 seconds at each light for left turning to complete. If you don't have dedicated left arrows and just have green lights for straight traffic, there will be chaos of backed up traffic waiting to turn left which causes other issues.

My point is the light timing is a considerable feature of the current system that is often forgot. And it's not like you can simply say 'just keep the total green light time the same'. There is a avalanche of cars ALSO waiting to go east/west on all those streets so you can't make their lives even worse.

I appreciate the response, but I'm still confused. Do you think the 7s should or should not have dedicated left turn arrows? Either way, how is this linked to the reverse lanes? Even if the reverse lanes went away, there could still be left turn restrictions and dedicated arrows if appropriate.