Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2 - Page 426

JHikka · #**8501** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 2:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

The jays were drawing flies, Actually in 2010 you could have fit every attending jays fan inside the ACC.

And in 2016 you couldn't fit half of the Jays average attendance into the ACC - what's your point? MLB attendance notoriously ebbs and flows due to the number of home games. Jays had incredible attendances in the late 80s and early 90s, weak attendances late 90s and 00s, and stronger attendances in the 10s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

It's so typical of Toronto "forumers" (mainly TFC supporters) to take recent attendance success and disguise it as the norm. When only a half decade ago things weren't so great.

TFC were an expansion franchise with no history of winning and have still averaged over 18K in each of its seasons. First five seasons were a consistent 20K, followed by two 18K, and haven't really looked back since.

TFC have shown, for the time being, that their potential gate ceiling is higher than Vancouver and Montreal. In saying that, all three have seen an increase in support overall and are in stronger positions than any of them were in a decade ago. Half a decade ago there was no MLS norm in Vancouver/Montreal and in 2016 all three garnered over 20K/game.

If we're getting into silly measuring contests, 2016 was the first year that MLS outdrew CFL in all three of their shared markets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Today Toronto sports teams are winners and well supported because of that. Lets wait a few years and see how the market sustains this gate success.

None of them have won anything and only the Jays are the only team to have won a league title in the past 50 years. The team that does win titles in Toronto, the NLL's Rock, average less than 10K in the ACC.

WhipperSnapper · #**8502** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 2:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Toronto has a population of 2.6 million and the GTA has a population of more than The prairies combined and Your bragging about filling the ACC for leafs games?

It was only a few years ago the raptors were almost rebranded to try and spark some interest in the team. The jays were drawing flies, Actually in 2010 you could have fit every attending jays fan inside the ACC. It's so typical of Toronto "forumers" (mainly TFC supporters) to take recent attendance success and disguise it as the norm. When only a half decade ago things weren't so great. Today Toronto sports teams are winners and well supported because of that. Lets wait a few years and see how the market sustains this gate success.

Edmonton may not have 3 of 4 major sports teams but they continue to lead the CFL in attendance and sold out rexall with the worst team in hockey for over a decade and now Oilers fans pay "leaf like" ticket prices to watch a mediocre team with a bright future. The Oil kings also outdraw the marlies So if if you're looking at it on a pound to pound basis Edmonton is right up there with Toronto and actually out draw them in 2 areas.

Come to think of it..So does Winnipeg and Calgary

LOL

-Population is meaningless as sporting events aren't the only events going on in a city at any point in time. The bigger the city, the more potentially available things to do.
-Raptors have always drew fairly well
-I sat with about 8000 screaming Jays fans and about 4000 Yankees fans in Yankee Stadium in 1992. They weren't even as bad as the Jays throughout the last 20 plus years.

esquire · #**8503** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 4:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

LOL

-Population is meaningless as sporting events aren't the only events going on in a city at any point in time. The bigger the city, the more potentially available things to do.

That's really the only winning hand for Toronto in this particular argument... "we're too busy to go to sports events anyway" or some variation thereupon.

And I would certainly agree that there is truth to that... the bigger the town, the less it gets wrapped up in that stuff. I've bought tickets NBA playoff games in LA on a whim through Ticketmaster well after the onsale date.... compare that with buying playoff hockey tickets for any Canadian NHL city.

Nathan · #**8504** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 4:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

That's really the only winning hand for Toronto in this particular argument... "we're too busy to go to sports events anyway" or some variation thereupon.

And I would certainly agree that there is truth to that... the bigger the town, the less it gets wrapped up in that stuff. I've bought tickets NBA playoff games in LA on a whim through Ticketmaster well after the onsale date.... compare that with buying playoff hockey tickets for any Canadian NHL city.

I don't know if it's that much of a winning hand really... American cities in the same population tier as Toronto have just as many other things to do and sometimes have multiple teams in the major American leagues (one thing that somewhat gets lost in the mix with attendance rankings) along with College sports, which are incredibly well supported.

The US is at a completely different level than Canada for spectator support and if cities in Canada want to be a part of that scene, that's the lens through which "success" is generally seen. Can you have all the things a normal city of that size/stature has (i.e. other things to do, host national events, etc), while at the same time carry teams in American sports leagues at the expected level of profitability/support?

Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not..

esquire · #**8505** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 5:19 PM**

^ good point. Toronto ignores collegiate sports... u sports doesn't even register, and for a few years they hosted a NCAA bowl game which was widely ignored, so it left.

Oilkountry · #**8506** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 5:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

LOL

-Population is meaningless as sporting events aren't the only events going on in a city at any point in time. The bigger the city, the more potentially available things to do.
-Raptors have always drew fairly well
-I sat with about 8000 screaming Jays fans and about 4000 Yankees fans in Yankee Stadium in 1992. They weren't even as bad as the Jays throughout the last 20 plus years.

LOL

Oh come on! You have 8 times Edmonton's population and that doesn't count towards local franchise support and season ticket sales? piss off!!!

The fact is Toronto is the (3rd?) biggest city in the North american sports landscape and Should be selling out arenas and stadiums for all franchises considering New york,Chigago and LA are supporting multiple teams in the same major leagues. It's ridiculous that you're even bragging about it.

FrankieFlowerpot · #**8507** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 5:51 PM**

oh great - this crap again

Acajack · #**8508** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 6:28 PM**

Basically every single metro in the U.S. that is Toronto's size has multiple pro sports teams (including an NFL) team, plus at least one college football and college basketball program that each draw NFL and NBA sized crowds.

I'll diverge a bit from the crowd now and say that this is more a Canada-vs.-U.S. thing than it is a Toronto-specific thing.

The Toronto-specific thing isn't so much about spectator sports attendance in general, but rather that it has weird hang-ups about domestic-only stuff like the CFL/Grey Cup, the Vanier Cup, curling and the Brier, or the CHL-Memorial Cup...

Acajack · #**8509** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 6:42 PM**

My apologies for so blatantly ignoring the large group of young people right now in a subway car on the Bloor-Danforth line, passionately discussing the upcoming Scott Tournament of Hearts.

How on earth could I have been so... misguided?

JHikka · #**8510** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Basically every single metro in the U.S. that is Toronto's size has multiple pro sports teams (including an NFL) team, plus at least one college football and college basketball program that each draw NFL and NBA sized crowds.

Chicago and New York certainly don't, unless you're trying to tell me DePaul or St. John's attract 15K+ to their basketball games (they don't).

Chicago should be a decent comparison:

Blackhawks (NHL) Maple Leafs
Bulls (NBA) Raptors
White Sox & Cubs (MLB) Blue Jays
Bears (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) Argonauts
Fire (MLS) TFC

21,669 (NHL) 20,082
21,876 (NBA) 19,846
81,800 (MLB) 41,880
62,358 (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) 16,380
15,602 (MLS) 26,583

BretttheRiderFan · #**8511** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Chicago and New York certainly don't, unless you're trying to tell me DePaul or St. John's attract 15K+ to their basketball games (they don't).

Chicago's college sports school is Northwestern, for sure.

mistercorporate · #**8512** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Chicago and New York certainly don't, unless you're trying to tell me DePaul or St. John's attract 15K+ to their basketball games (they don't).

Chicago should be a decent comparison

Blackhawks (NHL) Maple Leafs
Bulls (NBA) Raptors
White Sox & Cubs (MLB) Blue Jays
Bears (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) Argonauts
Fire (MLS) TFC

21, 669 (NHL) 20,082
21,876 (NBA) 19, 846
81,800 (MLB) 41,880
62,358 (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) 16,380
15,602 (MLS) 26,583

Not to mention LA couldn't even keep their NFL team for a number of years. Toronto is one of the healthiest sports markets in North America.

JHikka · #**8513** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

Chicago's college sports school is Northwestern, for sure.

Ah you're right, I always thought Northwestern was further north of Cook County. My bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Not to mention LA couldn't even keep their NFL team for a number of years. Toronto is one of the healthiest sports markets in North America.

Lack of NFL in LA for the time was made up by UCLA. Soon they'll have Rams, Chargers, plus UCLA. LA's sports scene really can't be compared to anything else. It's phenomenal.

Acajack · #**8514** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Chicago and New York certainly don't, unless you're trying to tell me DePaul or St. John's attract 15K+ to their basketball games (they don't).

Sorry, I wasn't counting them nor LA, as they (according to U.S. stats anyway, for Chicago) are bigger than Toronto's metro.

Still, Northwestern in Chicago averages 30,000 for their football games.

And St. John's in NYC averages about 10,000 per game, and does fill MSG on occasion.

They also play NCAA football games at the Meadowlands every year with non-local teams and they draw upwards of 60,000 usually.

JHikka · #**8515** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, I wasn't counting them nor LA, as they (according to U.S. stats anyway, for Chicago) are bigger than Toronto's metro.

Which were you referencing?

Acajack · #**8516** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Which were you referencing?

The ones that are around Toronto's size, and slightly smaller. So the next tier.

JHikka · #**8517** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

The ones that are around Toronto's size, and slightly smaller. So the next tier.

So...Houston? Philadelphia? Washington? Miami? Atlanta? Boston? San Francisco?

HOUSTON:
______ (NHL) Maple Leafs
Rockets (NBA) Raptors
Astros (MLB) Blue Jays
Texans (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) Argonauts
______(MLS) TFC

_____ (NHL) 20,082
16,672 (NBA) 19,846
21,268 (MLB) 41,880
71,644 (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) 16,380
_____ (MLS) 26,583

Houston would have Rice University/University of Houston football & basketball.

wave46 · #**8518** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

LOL

Oh come on! You have 8 times Edmonton's population and that doesn't count towards local franchise support and season ticket sales? piss off!!!

The fact is Toronto is the (3rd?) biggest city in the North american sports landscape and Should be selling out arenas and stadiums for all franchises considering New york,Chigago and LA are supporting multiple teams in the same major leagues. It's ridiculous that you're even bragging about it.

I think there's a cultural thing there too. The NFL and MLB are much more ingrained in American sports culture than the MLB and CFL is here in (Eastern) Canada. The same goes for the NHL in the southern US. You see the lack of support more in the NFL/MLB because the stadiums are so large - filling 50-60k seats is exponentially harder than 18-20k for an NHL/NBA game.

Population doesn't necessarily correlate to attendance. If it did, Montreal would probably still have the Expos, Phoenix would fill the Gila River Arena for the Coyotes and the Bills Toronto series should have been a smash hit. It's why Green Bay has a NFL team and Winnipeg has an NHL team and each has great attendance.

The GTA is about ~6 million, so it's about 6th in terms of population between Canada and the US metro areas. It's just behind Houston and Dallas.

mistercorporate · #**8519** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:36 PM**

_____ (NHL) 20,082
16,672 (NBA) 19,846
21,268 (MLB) 41,880
71,644 (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) 16,380
19,021 (MLS) 26,583

Updated that for you. Houston's MLS attendance is 19,021

Acajack · #**8520** Posted **Feb 7, 2017, 7:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

So...Houston? Philadelphia? Washington? Miami? Atlanta? Boston? San Francisco?

HOUSTON:
______ (NHL) Maple Leafs
Rockets (NBA) Raptors
Astros (MLB) Blue Jays
Texans (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) Argonauts
______(MLS) TFC

_____ (NHL) 20,082
16,672 (NBA) 19,846
21,268 (MLB) 41,880
71,644 (NFL) _______
_____ (CFL) 16,380
_____ (MLS) 26,583

Houston would have Rice University/University of Houston football & basketball.

Houston Cougars football is 30,000, Rice football is 20,000. There are also Texas Southern and Prairie View A and M in the area that draw CHL-sized crowds for their athletics.

Anyway, as I said this is a Canada-vs.-U.S. thing.

Any other Canadian city would fare the same or even worse than Toronto. Most certainly Montreal would fare worse.