Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Stijl]

Following up on the Prop 400 conversations (and political theater than followed) From early August. Didn't see this particular update dropped here, and thought I'd give a reminder:

The West Phoenix transit plan has a public meeting coming up later this week (Thursday 09/21). Last week, ahead of this meeting, it sounds like the proposed alighnment was released, and would be to have Light Rail extending down Indian School to 51st or 75ht Ave, then west again on Thomas to tie into the proposed I-10 Extension termination.

This is a change from the original extension down Camelback, which I'm guessing was shelved due to Glendale throwing up their hands and saying no thanks, pressure from businesses such as Bill Luke, and the utter indifference from GCU.

Info and meeting link can be found below (and the proposed alternatives can be seen in the Sept Presentation PDF linked on the page as well).

West Valley Transit Study

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Stijl

Following up on the Prop 400 conversations (and political theater than followed) From early August. Didn't see this particular update dropped here, and thought I'd give a reminder:

The West Phoenix transit plan has a public meeting coming up later this week (Thursday 09/21). Last week, ahead of this meeting, it sounds like the proposed alighnment was released, and would be to have Light Rail extending down Indian School to 51st or 75ht Ave, then west again on Thomas to tie into the proposed I-10 Extension termination.

This is a change from the original extension down Camelback, which I'm guessing was shelved due to Glendale throwing up their hands and saying no thanks, pressure from businesses such as Bill Luke, and the utter indifference from GCU.

Info and meeting link can be found below (and the proposed alternatives can be seen in the Sept Presentation PDF linked on the page as well).

West Valley Transit Study

This route woud serve Maryvale more effectively than the planned I-10 west extension. Interestingly, it appears to be in addition to that line, rather than instead of it.

[MiEncanto]

I do care about increasing transit for Maryvale, but selfishly I'm worried about how bad this is gonna make East West traffic both during construction and afterwards. People probably have no idea just how many people drive streets from west to east in the AM and the reverse in the PM. It's a sea of cars. Making Indian school a mess for years will be a problem for the other options. Woof.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Let's talk ridership when it's no longer free. The true ridership.

Actually, still free of charge until further notice. They are not ready for that. They are not ready to pay the fare. Not yet.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

I do care about increasing transit for Maryvale, but selfishly I'm worried about how bad this is gonna make East West traffic both during construction and afterwards. People probably have no idea just how many people drive streets from west to east in the AM and the reverse in the PM. It's a sea of cars. Making Indian school a mess for years will be a problem for the other options. Woof.

I remember a recent ADOT study found that the volume of east-west traffic passing over I-17 equaled or exceeded the number of cars going north-south on the freeway itself, so minimizing construction impacts is a valid concern.

[Stijl]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

I do care about increasing transit for Maryvale, but selfishly I'm worried about how bad this is gonna make East West traffic both during construction and afterwards. People probably have no idea just how many people drive streets from west to east in the AM and the reverse in the PM. It's a sea of cars. Making Indian school a mess for years will be a problem for the other options. Woof.

There's also the multi-year study for the Indian School / 35th Ave / Grand intersection that I don't recall referencing a light rail track at any point. And the proposed I-17 overpass changes required for the rail (though that one they were planning for LRT at the Camelback alignment).

[xymox]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

An unexpected comment in light of your user name, but I agree completely. The challenge is whether DPS can enforce any speed limit on a widespread basis. Automated enforcement technologies are out of the question with Republicans in control of the legislature, and speed governors, which would limit how fast vehicles can travel, are politically infeasible just about anywhere in the United States. Still, a speed limit, even one with low compliance, influences overall speed. Even if many drivers are already going 65 or 70, a 65-MPH speed limit gives more drivers a tacit sense of permission to drive at 75, 80, or more.

This article explains a bit more of the legal and political motivations behind the survey. Under the terms of the Proposition 400 extension agreement, ADOT must set the speed limit at 65 MPH or higher unless it determines a lower one is needed via a process that includes public input:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...y/70867411007/

Look - the Germans have manage zero speed limits in remote areas to 80mph equivalents near the major metros for years. Same with Austria (minus the zero limits - 80mph is quite common). They put focus on requiring defensive driving school to get your license and everyone follows the rules as such. They also use more technology to variably adjust the speed limits in the metro areas based on weather conditions and traffic itself.

Even at 55mph - people are going 75mph or faster - despite the fact that 20mph over the posted speed limit anywhere is criminal speeding. High fees won't help - and keeping the limit artificially low increases accidents by interrupting the flow of traffic with people causing un-necessary lane changes.

I will say on my road trip this summer through Utah where the rural I-70 is 80mph - hardly ANYONE was going that fast. Everyone seemed to top out around 75mph. There is an upper limit to how fast people will go before they feel unsafe. 55mph isn't it. It's not 1970 anymore - your car is safer and won't rattle and vibrate like its going to fall apart as you approach 60. Driving assistance technology also helps as well. 20 years from now it'll be a lot different.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Stijl

There's also the multi-year study for the Indian School / 35th Ave / Grand intersection that I don't recall referencing a light rail track at any point. And the proposed I-17 overpass changes required for the rail (though that one they were planning for LRT at the Camelback alignment).

I knows Indian School Rd traffic is so bad. Too many cars! I remember when we went to VR office. It was too many traffic. Very congested traffic. We no longer go to the VR office anymore. You must avoid it.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by xymox

Look - the Germans have manage zero speed limits in remote areas to 80mph equivalents near the major metros for years. Same with Austria (minus the zero limits - 80mph is quite common). They put focus on requiring defensive driving school to get your license and everyone follows the rules as such. They also use more technology to variably adjust the speed limits in the metro areas based on weather conditions and traffic itself.

Even at 55mph - people are going 75mph or faster - despite the fact that 20mph over the posted speed limit anywhere is criminal speeding. High fees won't help - and keeping the limit artificially low increases accidents by interrupting the flow of traffic with people causing un-necessary lane changes.

I will say on my road trip this summer through Utah where the rural I-70 is 80mph - hardly ANYONE was going that fast. Everyone seemed to top out around 75mph. There is an upper limit to how fast people will go before they feel unsafe. 55mph isn't it. It's not 1970 anymore - your car is safer and won't rattle and vibrate like its going to fall apart as you approach 60. Driving assistance technology also helps as well. 20 years from now it'll be a lot different.

If only we had German-level driving standards in the United States. Unfortunately, more stringent licensing requirements would probably be as politically unfeasible as automated enforcement and speed governors. The 55-MPH speed limit in the 1970s was motivated more by fuel conservation than vehicle safety. At the time, 55 MPH was around where cars would experience optimal fuel economy. I'm not sure if that's still true.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by xymox

Look - the Germans have manage zero speed limits in remote areas to 80mph equivalents near the major metros for years. Same with Austria (minus the zero limits - 80mph is quite common). They put focus on requiring defensive driving school to get your license and everyone follows the rules as such. They also use more technology to variably adjust the speed limits in the metro areas based on weather conditions and traffic itself.

Even at 55mph - people are going 75mph or faster - despite the fact that 20mph over the posted speed limit anywhere is criminal speeding. High fees won't help - and keeping the limit artificially low increases accidents by interrupting the flow of traffic with people causing un-necessary lane changes.

I will say on my road trip this summer through Utah where the rural I-70 is 80mph - hardly ANYONE was going that fast. Everyone seemed to top out around 75mph. There is an upper limit to how fast people will go before they feel unsafe. 55mph isn't it. It's not 1970 anymore - your car is safer and won't rattle and vibrate like its going to fall apart as you approach 60. Driving assistance technology also helps as well. 20 years from now it'll be a lot different.

Good post.

On a related angle, I challenge everyone who thinks we ought to have German standards to justify their position to make a DL cost about $2k per person to achieve, which is about what it costs there. It's not a right, it's a privilege and an expensive one. Safety and precision come at a cost the Germans are willing to pay.

[ASU Diablo]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...e/70921059007/

Tempe's streetcar has shattered expectations by serving more than 800,000 passengers in its first 16 months of operation, which is more than double the ridership target that transit officials were hoping to hit by July 2024, according to data from Valley Metro.

The trolley went online in May 2022 and operates on a looped track that spans 3 miles of city streets. It starts at East Apache Boulevard and South Dorsey Lane and picks up passengers every 15 to 20 minutes at 14 stops near points of interest — such as Sun Devil Stadium and City Hall — before turning back at the Marina Heights business center.

Unlike light rail — which can carry about 175 passengers through three Valley cities on out-of-the-way tracks — the streetcar travels alongside cars on regular roadways, holds about 125 people per trolley and Tempe is the only Valley city where it exists.

Officials expected that roughly 330,000 passengers would use the trolley within 26 months, but it just about hit that target within its first seven.

This month, the streetcar reached its July 2024 target two-and-a-half times over, a success that city spokesperson TaiAnna Yee attributed to the system's route and quick pickup times.

[CrestedSaguaro]

I received an email from Valley Metro for a transit study. Looks like they are leaning towards going out Indian School from Central Ave to 75th and then down to Thomas and out to 91st Ave on Thomas. I'm curious on how they would plan to go over I-17 as there is currently a plan to build a 2nd bridge over the top of the existing bridge for through-traffic.

Attend a public meeting to learn about and provide input on the recommended transit type (light rail) and route (see map) for the West Phoenix Alternatives Analysis that will bring high-capacity transit to west Phoenix.



Join us at an in-person meeting:
Thursday, October 12, 2023
6 p.m. - 8 p.m.
Adam Diaz Senior Center
4115 W. Thomas Road
Phoenix, AZ 85019
 
All meeting materials, including a comment form are available at valleymetro.org/westphoenix

through October 20, 2023.

https://www.valleymetro.org/project/...tives-analysis

[combusean]

Really glad they're thinking this way. Indian School most of the whole way makes a lot more sense than that dogleg that was in the previous alternative.

I suspect they'd just tunnel under the freeway. But the costs of reinforcing and widening the Grand Avenue bridge and that would seemingly make this line unfeasible.

[pbenjamin]

We had a presentation on that at this week's Encanto VPC meeting. An interesting juncture would be where Grand Avenue, Indian School Road, 35th Ave, the proposed Light Rail Extension, the proposed BRT line and the BNSF rail tracks converge.

[phoenixwillrise]

Would be the better route to pick up thousands of GCU students. No brainer.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Would be the better route to pick up thousands of GCU students. No brainer.

For sure, but I don't think Camelback is an option for light rail without Glendale's participation.

[combusean]

Glendale doesn't have the money to build light rail on Camelback. In Phoenix, GCU apparently isn't interested in light rail and the car dealerships are definitely not. Camelback just isn't going anywhere.

All of this seems short sighted but the fact of the matter is that Phoenix and Tempe made the conscious decision to enact transit taxes to build light rail 20+ years ago and Glendale never did. And of course, that city's not in any financial shape to even try that idea.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

Glendale doesn't have the money to build light rail on Camelback. In Phoenix, GCU apparently isn't interested in light rail and the car dealerships are definitely not. Camelback just isn't going anywhere.

All of this seems short sighted but the fact of the matter is that Phoenix and Tempe made the conscious decision to enact transit taxes to build light rail 20+ years ago and Glendale never did. And of course, that city's not in any financial shape to even try that idea.

All true. I'd add that Glendale made light rail a more expensive proposition that it needed to be when it insisted on Westgate as a final destination. The biggest anticatiped cost was crossing over the freight tracks on the west edge of downtown Glendale. That could have been avoided by only going as far as downtown or by turning north on 59th Avenue.

[combusean]

Downtown as a destination probably wouldn't have garnered enough riders to warrant federal subsidies. And they'd still have to cough up a couple hundred million to have the train even go there which they simply don't have.

The fact that Phoenix has to go it alone on Indian School is great for those who ride it and Maryvale as a whole but it's more because of Phoenix's weird J-shaped geography than any sound regional planning.

[phoenixwillrise]

Just run a dead ending from 19th ave. and Camelback to GCU, which is in Phoenix and pick up all of that ridership.