Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And Canada has had decades to prepare for "end of Boomers", and chose not to.

Like most Western governments...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

We should just seize those two. The French have their hands full with New Caledonia.

The situation in New Caledonia is sad. Last night some pro-independence activists torched the campaign headquarters of the anti-independence candidates in the national French legislative elections (for the National Assembly). These are the same people who have organized the roadblocks and torching of businesses and private houses over the entire Greater Nouméa for the past month.

These people have no interest in democracy whatsoever. It's as if PQ militants torched the campaign headquarters of Liberal Party candidates in the federal elections. These Kanak leaders want to create their independent country (called "Kanaky", the name already says it all), but what sort of country would that be if political opponents are not even tolerated??

Permanence en feu

La Voix du Caillou
15 juin 2024



https://voixducaillou.nc/2024/06/15/permanence-en-feu/

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The situation in New Caledonia is sad. Last night some pro-independence activists torched the campaign headquarters of the anti-independence candidates in the national French legislative elections (for the National Assembly). These are the same people who have organized the roadblocks and torching of businesses and private houses over the entire Greater Nouméa for the past month.

These people have no interest in democracy whatsoever. It's as if PQ militants torched the campaign headquarters of Liberal Party candidates in the federal elections. These Kanak leaders want to create their independent country (called "Kanaky", the name already says it all), but what sort of country would that be if political opponents are not even tolerated??

vive le Kanaky libre

[New Brisavoine]

^^Actually they insist on not using the definite article. This is another way, along with the insistence on spelling it with English K instead of French C, for them to break away with France.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

vive le Kanaky libre

Exactly. If some sovereignist militant actually committed violence in Canada, he'd be all over it telling us how it's justified. But when it's on French territory suddenly the concerns about how they'd lack democracy and political minorities might not be tolerated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly. If some sovereignist militant actually committed violence in Canada, he'd be all over it telling us how it's justified. But when it's on French territory suddenly the concerns about how they'd lack democracy and political minorities might not be tolerated.

I don't think New Brisavoine has ever expressed support for political violence, either by Quebecers or anyone else.

Though it's true that people from France can sometimes be duplicitous, expressing support for Quebec (or Catalonia) and being hostile to Corsica or Euskadi (Basque country).

That said it's not that different from how many Canadians of various origins (for example Scottish) are rah-rah-rah for independence in the country of their forebears, but often hostile to Quebec because supposedly "that's a totally different case".

Humans are like that.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think New Brisavoine has ever expressed support for political violence, either by Quebecers or anyone else.

Though it's true that people from France can sometimes be duplicitous, expressing support for Quebec (or Catalonia) and being hostile to Corsica or Euskadi (Basque country).

That said it's not that different from how many Canadians of various origins (for example Scottish) are rah-rah-rah for independence in the country of their forebears, but often hostile to Quebec because supposedly "that's a totally different case".

Humans are like that.

The most epic example of this was a few years ago when a POTUS (either Obama, sitting, or Bill Clinton, former) was officially lecturing the Scots about the dangers of seeking independence from London

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though it's true that people from France can sometimes be duplicitous, expressing support for Quebec (or Catalonia) and being hostile to Corsica or Euskadi (Basque country).

Most French people would like to get rid of Corsica. As for Euskadi it's in Spain, not in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Most French people would like to get rid of Corsica. As for Euskadi it's in Spain, not in France.

Isn't something like a quarter of the Basque country in France?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Isn't something like a quarter of the Basque country in France?

"Euskadi" refers to a Spanish autonomous community. The entire Basque Country is called "Euskal Herria" if you want to sound pedantic and use Basque terms. This is in any case a modern term invited by Spanish Basque nationalists, like Euskadi.

Historically the French Basque Country formed tree provinces: Labourd, Soule, and Navarre (Basse-Navarre precisely, i.e. the part of Navarre north of the Pyrénées that the kings of Spain didn't dare to conquer for fear of provoking a war with the king of France). There was never a "Basque province" as such in ancient France.

Since the 19th century these three historical provinces have been called Pays Basque by the French, or French Basque Country in English, or Iparralde (literally "Northern side") in Basque by Basque nationalists.

There has never been any call for independence in the French Basque Country, whose history is very different from the Spanish Basque Country. In any case the majority of inhabitants of the French Basque Country is not of Basque ancestry due to big movements of population in France and the appeal of the Basque coast.

[Acajack]

Latest sovereignty poll.

https://x.com/338Canada/status/1802753638852354219

Seems to be one of the better recent ones for the Oui side.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Latest sovereignty poll.

https://x.com/338Canada/status/1802753638852354219

Seems to be one of the better recent ones for the Oui side.

40% Yes, 52% No is considered good? Ouch.

A year ago I would have said that separation was somewhat likely in the medium term, due to irreconcilable differences on immigration policy preferences between Quebec and the ROC. The Canadian immigration policy pursued under Trudeau puts Quebec in a position where they have to either:

a) accept the degradation of the French language within Quebec; or
b) accept Quebec's share of the population declining.

Both of which are a very alarming prospects for Quebec.

And this is very different from the constitutional battles of the 1980s that caused the last separatist push; as that one mostly was resolved simply through a federal policy of leaving Quebec alone. It's notable that support for independence in Quebec reached its lowest levels during Harper's time as PM (despite Harper not being particularly popular in Quebec) as Harper pursued a policy of non-interference in provincial affairs which limited national grievances. Immigration is more fundamental and can't be solved through that "benign neglect" approach.

However, it appears that the dam has burst on immigration in the ROC and now public sentiment is in favour of less immigration. So in the medium term Canada may very well return to a pre-2015 immigration policy that resolves this key Quebec grievance.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Latest sovereignty poll.

https://x.com/338Canada/status/1802753638852354219

Seems to be one of the better recent ones for the Oui side.

Sort of. All of the Pallas polls have the yes considerably higher than the Léger polls. Make of it what you will.

Within just Pallas polling however, this is the NON's largest margin since September 2023 (+12 now, +11 in April, + 7 in January).

https://338canada.com/quebec/polls-indy.htm

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

40% Yes, 52% No is considered good? Ouch.

A year ago I would have said that separation was somewhat likely in the medium term, due to irreconcilable differences on immigration policy preferences between Quebec and the ROC. The Canadian immigration policy pursued under Trudeau puts Quebec in a position where they have to either:

a) accept the degradation of the French language within Quebec; or
b) accept Quebec's share of the population declining.

Both of which are a very alarming prospects for Quebec.

And this is very different from the constitutional battles of the 1980s that caused the last separatist push; as that one mostly was resolved simply through a federal policy of leaving Quebec alone. It's notable that support for independence in Quebec reached its lowest levels during Harper's time as PM (despite Harper not being particularly popular in Quebec) as Harper pursued a policy of non-interference in provincial affairs which limited national grievances. Immigration is more fundamental and can't be solved through that "benign neglect" approach.

However, it appears that the dam has burst on immigration in the ROC and now public sentiment is in favour of less immigration. So in the medium term Canada may very well return to a pre-2015 immigration policy that resolves this key Quebec grievance.

This ia good analysis. I think the return to pre-2015 is on the higher end of what is most likely. It's possible we end up lower than that. Another quirk in that is Quebec's economy is doing well and with cost of living still trailing there may be within Canada migration that would look like immigration to Quebec.

[Acajack]

The sovereignty movement seems to consider anything 40% and over to be a good starting point as they were as low as 38% before campaigning really began in earnest before the 1995 referendum, and they ended up at 49.4%.

Especially since there has been almost no promotion of independence for the past 10-15 years, except for it starting to get played up a bit only very recently.

[Architype]

Here's an interesting article from 2016, it parallels the journey of Quebec with the divisive upheaval happening in the US. I think it is even more relevant now. It uses the phrase "internal exile", apropos for those who are non-Quebecois, and staying in Quebec. I think even those in the rest of Canada will have similar feelings.

How Quebec Separatism Prepared Me for Trump’s America.

Staying is one thing—belonging is another.

Those years in Quebec, “It was like the country you thought you were living in was no longer your country,” remembers my mother. There could be no better way to sum up my own feelings, and those of millions of fellow Americans, after the election of Donald Trump. Coping with the aftermath has split my American friends into two camps. One group is in the fight. They protest, sign petitions, binge-donate to non-profits, and call Congress members every day. Others have turned off the channel completely, booking last-minute trips to Mauritius, Costa Rica, and other faraway places with little Internet access. Fellow writers have told me they are in “internal exile,” a term invoked by artists who stayed in Germany during the Nazi occupation. They work on what’s in front of them. They don’t engage beyond it. . .

https://thewalrus.ca/how-quebec-sepa...rumps-america/

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

40% Yes, 52% No is considered good? Ouch.

A year ago I would have said that separation was somewhat likely in the medium term, due to irreconcilable differences on immigration policy preferences between Quebec and the ROC. The Canadian immigration policy pursued under Trudeau puts Quebec in a position where they have to either:

a) accept the degradation of the French language within Quebec; or
b) accept Quebec's share of the population declining.

Both of which are a very alarming prospects for Quebec.

And this is very different from the constitutional battles of the 1980s that caused the last separatist push; as that one mostly was resolved simply through a federal policy of leaving Quebec alone. It's notable that support for independence in Quebec reached its lowest levels during Harper's time as PM (despite Harper not being particularly popular in Quebec) as Harper pursued a policy of non-interference in provincial affairs which limited national grievances. Immigration is more fundamental and can't be solved through that "benign neglect" approach.

However, it appears that the dam has burst on immigration in the ROC and now public sentiment is in favour of less immigration. So in the medium term Canada may very well return to a pre-2015 immigration policy that resolves this key Quebec grievance.

That seems a bit reductive, depending on what you mean by "degradation".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That seems a bit reductive, depending on what you mean by "degradation".

And yet absent some appreciable changes (that don't necessarily have to go as far as independence and could take place within the Canadian context) further degradation of Québec's unique linguistic and cultural character looks like a sure thing.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And yet absent some appreciable changes (that don't necessarily have to go as far as independence and could take place within the Canadian context) further degradation of Québec's unique linguistic and cultural character looks like a sure thing.

One partial answer might be to improve French language education, which is long overdue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

One partial answer might be to improve French language education, which is long overdue.

Have to disagree.

It's all about power relationships really.

English is hegemonic in Newfoundland and Mississippi and people don't speak the King's English there.

Heck there are parts of Québec where French is hegemonic (for now).

And the French spoken here has moved a lot closer to the international standard.