Post some pictures of your city! II

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Dundas Square is hideous (my opinion), and hasn`t impressd any of my friends , but I`m sure it excites a lot of people from Torontro and visitors from abroad.

I think it makes perfect sense for Toronto to have a Dundas Square. It suits its personality and ambitions. Basically Toronto wants to join London and NY and Sydney as one of the big boys club anglo club. And it has. It`s got it`s own diet version of the Hollywood walk of fame, it`s own kids table version of broadway and west end and it`s got it`s own beta version of Picadilly circus and Times Square. And it`s fine really. I`m not much of a materialist and I`m not good at capitalism, so it`s not for me. But I`m sure a tonne of people like it.

Let them have it.

I think Montreal is more likely to end up with something more along the lines of a greatly expanded and year-round version of this, in the Quartier des Spectacles area:

https://www.quartierdesspectacles.co...r-le-quartier/

It's a bit more artsy and less commercial, which probably fits the ethos of the city more.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by megadude

As much as YD doesn't interest me, I am also in the boat of being happy that it's there. Glad the city can try and have something for everyone, depending on your tastes.

Good post and I agree with everything you've said.

I've wrote a few critical essays on the design/function of YD, read far too many more and am personally indifferent to it (crowds and chain stores ain't my thing*). But it's undeniably an importance place that has come into its own despite any of the shortcomings. It's not hard to see why it has become a meeting place for younger people, even if that's why I avoid it.

*It is kinda fun to "ironically" go up the patio at Jack Astors after a few pints and look out over everything. And have a few more very overpriced ones.

[GreaterMontréal]

Once finished, Sainte Catherine street will be the new place to be. I see it as a place for flagship stores.

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think Montreal is more likely to end up with something more along the lines of a greatly expanded and year-round version of this, in the Quartier des Spectacles area:

https://www.quartierdesspectacles.co...r-le-quartier/

It's a bit more artsy and less commercial, which probably fits the ethos of the city more.

Exactly. I'm okay with Dundas square existing because it's an accurate representation of Toronto as a 21st century neo-liberal anglosphere metropolis. It makes sense that it exists. And so I'm pounding the gavel: not guilty.

I don't like it. But not guilty.

Place des festivals is equally flawed in my opinion. It's a contrived attempt at creating a gathering space. The PDA people did everything they could to NOT replicate Times square and it's derivatives. There's almost 0 corporate presence and it's an almost fully publicly funded arts and performance-minded space. THAT works.

What hasn't quite worked is it's overall urban aesthetic. It just isn't all that hot, and it's surroundings are generally not all that interesting. However, the new buildings around it like the NFB and the Dance building have helped a great deal. And now he Maestria towers (202 + 185m) will give the plaza a much needed sense of scale and "oumf".

Just like Dundas, it's an eternal work in progress.

[Kilgore Trout]

This summer was interesting because there were no festivals, and yet the Place des Festivals felt even livelier than usual. There were always a lot of people hanging out there, playing in fountains, having picnics on the grassy slopes or sitting on the picnic benches. For the first time it felt like a real gathering place. With all the new projects in the area, I think downtown's centre of gravity is finally shifting east, especially if there is more WFH in the future and office vacancies increase.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Jesus, I wish I felt this way about it. YD Square has always struck me as chaotic and incoherent, just bad place-making. There are only a handful of real attractions, the public space is badly designed and poorly used (despite the crush of people in the area, it’s not well-used spontaneously as a gathering place, mostly only full when there’s some planned event happening), and it’s ugly and loud. It’s a contrived urban environment that hasn’t really evolved organically in the many years since it was built. I’m not trying to be snooty about it either—I actually like Times Square and some similar areas.

ie. Basically every weekend? It seems like everytime I go through there's something happening - whether that be concerts, markets, demonstrations, whatever. Obviously not this year of course - though it's still gotten frequent use for "spontaneous" protests and the like. Likewise, it's the natural gathering point for celebrations (Raptors championship, 2010 Olympic hockey, etc).

If the space is "only" being made use of for exactly the kinds of events that it was intended to be used for, then where's the failure? It doesn't function as a park or an Italian piazza would because it's not designed to be that kind of space - but that's a feature and not a bug.

It's not really an area I like to spend much time in either, but given the existing context of the site, there's not much I'd have designed differently with the Square itself (some of the ugly surrounding buildings are of course another matter).

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Dundas Square is hideous (my opinion), and hasn`t impressd any of my friends , but I`m sure it excites a lot of people from Torontro and visitors from abroad.

I think it makes perfect sense for Toronto to have a Dundas Square. It suits its personality and ambitions. Basically Toronto wants to join London and NY and Sydney as one of the big boys club anglo club. And it has. It`s got it`s own diet version of the Hollywood walk of fame, it`s own kids table version of broadway and west end and it`s got it`s own beta version of Picadilly circus and Times Square. And it`s fine really. I`m not much of a materialist and I`m not good at capitalism, so it`s not for me. But I`m sure a tonne of people like it.

Let them have it.

Jesus, could you make that sound any more patronizing?

[softee]

Originally Posted by DrJoe

Who's kidding who, it's the only intersection in Canada to look like this, all these haters wish their city had something similar, and they do not. What we are witnessing in this thread is Dundas Square as a beacon of sorts, anti-Toronto jealous sentiments can come out without admitting as such, disguised as the dislike (actual jealousy) of Dundas Sq.

The Square is awesome, it is what it is, there is nowhere else in the country that you can feel somewhat of a heartbeat going on. That's why those from elsewhere are trying to discredit it, their city doesn't have that. On this dick-measuring forum, that must be avenged in some manner.

Bingo.

[905er]

I find Yonge/Dundas sq. a bit tacky myself. My biggest criticism is how it appears to try to emulate Times Square in NYC, picadilly in London or something you see in Tokyo.. lacks originality imo. That said, it is interesting in its own right, but it comes across (at least to me) like Toronto is trying too hard to be like the big guys and I think it's safe to say a lot of foreign visitors will feel the same way upon seeing it. I hear people refer to it all the time like a "mini" Times Square.. I wouldn't take it as a complement it just sounds like they're saying 'lesser than'.. which is why I would have preferred something more original.... something that says TORONTO... and not NY.
Every time I've ever been in that area I see are bizarre protests or demonstations, bible thumpers and people blasting nonsense over megaphones which has always made it a place you want to rush through in order to get to where you're going rather than a space you actually want to spend much, if any time in.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by softee

Bingo.

Bingo?

I hate to tell you guys, but every time someone not in Toronto levies a criticism against something in Toronto, it’s not because of “jealousy.”

In any case, I think Toronto is awesome. But YD Square is a missed opportunity to create a truly great central public space. (In response to a comment above, if a square in the heart of the city has to have programmed events just to get people to use it in large numbers, it’s not working.)

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by DrJoe

Who's kidding who, it's the only intersection in Canada to look like this, all these haters wish their city had something similar, and they do not. What we are witnessing in this thread is Dundas Square as a beacon of sorts, anti-Toronto jealous sentiments can come out without admitting as such, disguised as the dislike (actual jealousy) of Dundas Sq.

The Square is awesome, it is what it is, there is nowhere else in the country that you can feel somewhat of a heartbeat going on. That's why those from elsewhere are trying to discredit it, their city doesn't have that. On this dick-measuring forum, that must be avenged in some manner.

Typical insecure, knee-jerk reaction.

[esquire]

I think Rico R. nailed it, it's one of those things Toronto had to have because at a certain point it's a box that needs to be checked in their class of cities... opera house, check... big TV broadcasting centre, check... major shopping centre, check... big neon-covered square, check... etc.

And that's fine. I guess what's mildly irritating is the constant stream of denials regarding something that is so obviously modeled after Times Square. I mean, the organizations involved in the development of the square literally went out and plowed under a half a block to create a scale model replica of Times Square. Why not just own it and say "yeah, it's our Times Square" instead of denying the glaringly obvious? But anyway.

I always loved Yonge Street from the time I first set foot on it in 1990 until now. It has changed over the years but some of the seedy charm still exists. To my mind it's the narrow street lined by a lot of lowrise buildings that is what made the street iconic... I would have doubled down on that typology (as shown in the pic posted by isaidso) rather than trying to wedge a piece of New York in there, but that's just me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Bingo?

I hate to tell you guys, but every time someone not in Toronto levies a criticism against something in Toronto, it’s not because of “jealousy.”
)

Yeah, why is almost every criticism of Toronto (or something in the city) dismissed as "jealousy"?

Every other city gets dissed for something or other, but you basically never hear its citizens say "pfft! you're just jealous!"

It's just such a weird reaction. But so typically Torontonian.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think Rico R. nailed it, it's one of those things Toronto had to have because at a certain point it's a box that needs to be checked in their class of cities... opera house, check... big TV broadcasting centre, check... major shopping centre, check... big neon-covered square, check... etc.

And that's fine. I guess what's mildly irritating is the constant stream of denials regarding something that is so obviously modeled after Times Square. I mean, the organizations involved in the development of the square literally went out and plowed under a half a block to create a scale model replica of Times Square. Why not just own it and say "yeah, it's our Times Square" instead of denying the glaringly obvious? But anyway.

I always loved Yonge Street from the time I first set foot on it in 1990 until now. It has changed over the years but some of the seedy charm still exists. To my mind it's the narrow street lined by a lot of lowrise buildings that is what made the street iconic... I would have doubled down on that typology (as shown in the pic posted by isaidso) rather than trying to wedge a piece of New York in there, but that's just me.

I can't believe I'm dragging myself into this...

You know what a scale replica is, right? It's a perfectly identical copy of something scaled down in size and proportions. Like the Eiffel Tower at the Paris casino in Las Vegas is a scale replica of the real deal. Dundas Square is not the 6-point intersection of Broadway, 7th ave. and 42nd St grafted onto Yonge and Dundas.

Rico's initial post was basically full of hackneyed 1980s cliches of Toronto, like he was some drunken boomer Gazzette reporter phoning it in from some Crescent Street bar. He couldn't even use an apostrophe correctly.

I can see why Dundas Square is thought of as a poor man's Times Square - that's inevitable and I think most Torontonians accept that. However, it is patently untrue that the City built Dundas Square because they desperately wanted Toronto to have a Times Square experience. As if the city only "checks boxes" based on what other cities have done because it lacks the imagination to chart its own path.

Actually, if you knew anything about this city, you'd realize that one of its biggest problems is its sense of exceptionalism. A lot of people - including me - have often championed doing things that other cities have done because they were progressive and led to a quality of life upgrade, but the City (capital 'C' - as in the municipal government) often ignores these things and tries to reinvent the wheel with lacklustre results. Infamous examples: calls to tear down the Gardiner because pretty much every other city of our league and higher has done so; improving the public realm and pedestrian amenities; building better bike lanes. I could go on.

[esquire]

^ It's obviously not just Toronto that does that... every city follows the crowd to some extent. So I get that impulse. You would probably have a hard time finding a Canadian city without a copycat version of something from somewhere else.

For what it's worth I do not feel passionate about Yonge-Dundas Square... I just don't really like it, much the same way I don't like pistachio ice cream. I don't really think about it, I just don't like it and that's all. But whenver the subject comes up here, the same thing plays out... most people agree it's totally contrived and it sucks, a bunch of people from Toronto get upset and claim we don't understand it, and then we just kind of go around in circles.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by esquire

And that's fine. I guess what's mildly irritating is the constant stream of denials regarding something that is so obviously modeled after Times Square. I mean, the organizations involved in the development of the square literally went out and plowed under a half a block to create a scale model replica of Times Square. Why not just own it and say "yeah, it's our Times Square" instead of denying the glaringly obvious? But anyway.

Again, where's the evidence that it was an intentional effort to look like Times Square? Let's look at the history:

- Yonge & Dundas has been the commercial heart of the city since the early 1900s.
- It was covered in neon signage and large advertisements by no later than the 1950s or 60s, as was typical of such areas at the time. By this time it would already be Toronto's "Times Square-equivalent".
- In 1998, the City decides to expropriate a few buildings to build a pedestrian Square at the city's busiest pedestrian intersection. Note that Times Square was not pedestrianised until 2010.
- New development follows, which features large advertisements and video screens because it's a busy intersection. Note that the Square itself does not feature advertising.

It's an area that's developed organically over time in a fashion similar to Times Square, Picadilly Circus, Shibuya Crossing, and others. Times Square is simply the closest and most famous example of this sort of urban typology so it unfortunately invites natural comparisons when a less famous city has a similar distinct.

But it's ultimately no more a Times Square knock-off than Toronto's financial district being an imitation of Midtown Manhattan, or Queen West being an imitation of Williamsburg, or Yorkville being an imitation of the Upper East Side. Similarities can be drawn between most neighbourhoods - which is something that many visitors will do to better understand less familiar places. That does not actually make the "lesser" one an imitation of the "greater" one however.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's obviously not just Toronto that does that... every city follows the crowd to some extent. So I get that impulse. You would probably have a hard time finding a Canadian city without a copycat version of something from somewhere else.

For what it's worth I do not feel passionate about Yonge-Dundas Square... I just don't really like it, much the same way I don't like pistachio ice cream. I don't really think about it, I just don't like it and that's all. But whenver the subject comes up here, the same thing plays out... most people agree it's totally contrived and it sucks, a bunch of people from Toronto get upset and claim we don't understand it, and then we just kind of go around in circles.

I'm not butthurt that you don't like Dundas Square.

I'm also not offended that a lot of people compare Dundas Square to Times Square. There are neon-lit squares in countless other cities across the world, but Times Square is the most famous. Whatevs.

It is annoying, however, that some Toronto forumers are patiently trying to explain the history of how the Dundas Square area evolved, and outside posters are just like "yup, like I said, copycat of Times Square". It's kind of like a scientist trying to explain the thermodynamics of the big bang to an audience with models and some religious nut ignoring all that and going "yup, like I said, the earth is 6,000 years old".

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

In any case, I think Toronto is awesome. But YD Square is a missed opportunity to create a truly great central public space. (In response to a comment above, if a square in the heart of the city has to have programmed events just to get people to use it in large numbers, it’s not working.)

My point being that if a space is only used for programmed events, but is almost always hosting those programmed events, then it's basically a case it of being busy except for the times that it isn't.

[esquire]

I would never call what was there before a knockoff of Times Square... this had a character that was uniquely Toronto:



But this?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It is annoying, however, that some Toronto forumers are patiently trying to explain the history of how the Dundas Square area evolved, and outside posters are just like "yup, like I said, copycat of Times Square". It's kind of like a scientist trying to explain the thermodynamics of the big bang to an audience with models and some religious nut ignoring all that and going "yup, like I said, the earth is 6,000 years old".

With all due respect the history of how it came to be is not particularly illuminating here. What most of us are concerned with is the end result. Not the "well, once you fully understand the complex historical reasons as to why there's a Winners store located there surely you will come to appreciate the very unique urban environment that has organically developed", etc.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

My point being that if a space is only used for programmed events, but is almost always hosting those programmed events, then it's basically a case it of being busy except for the times that it isn't.

Fair point, but really, it's not almost always hosting events--most weekdays and afternoons it's not hosting anything in particular. For example, I don't know if this schedule from summer 2019 accounts for everything that happened there, but it only shows maybe half the days of the month hosting programmed events, usually for an hour or a few at most. The spring, fall, and winter schedules are much barer.

I spent two years at Ryerson and was able to observe the Square almost every day, and personally, I think in that time I only ever used it as a shortcut, rather than a place to take lunch or meet friends or do something unprompted and unplanned.

And because there are so few other public spaces around here, it does feel like a failure in that it doesn't do very well as a spontaneous gathering place. It works great for events like whatever is happening here, but more often looks like this: basically a shortcut from Dundas East to Yonge, or someone for Eaton Centre shoppers to take a five-minute breather.

I will say that this thread has disabused me of the notion that Y-D is a Times Square knock-off, though. The square really does look like a reasonable evolution of the sort of mini-TS commercial nexus that predated it. I just wish it were better-used.