Federal Government & Politics II

[kwoldtimer]

There is no end of non-military activity that could offer attractive alternatives for national service, although getting to something universal could be a huge and costly undertaking.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

There is no end of non-military activity that could offer attractive alternatives for national service, although getting to something universal could be a huge and costly undertaking.

Indeed. A year of compulsory national service would be great for forest fire fighting, road maintenance, farm labour, fish plant working etc. It would displace a lot of temporary foreign workers.

[kool maudit]

The potential merits don't matter. The Tories are out of power and campaigning. Talk goodies not PATRIOTIC OBLIGATIONS. Talk the other guy's failures. Don't talk sacrifice with no mandate.

[goodgrowth]

My National Service Plan:

[Truenorth00]

Honestly, I am not sure I want to serve in a conscript military where half (or more) of those there don't want to be there. The other half get an absolutely minimal level of training which would mostly be useless on the modern battlefield. The current casualty rates on both sides in Ukraine proves this point.

If this were ever to be a semi-serious suggestion, I wouldn't suggest building it around military service. But something like a civil defence corps. Teach them first aid, firefighting, basic rescue, environmental protection etc. Use them for fighting forest fires, disaster response, evacuating communities, planting trees, etc. In this way, they can actually free up the real professionals in the CAF, Forest Service, Coast Guard, etc to really focus on important jobs. They can be trained in 3 months for something like this. And serve for 3 months. That would be enough time to be both useful and inculcate the values that are usually the goals of this kind of program.

But again, imposing this on young people, while screwing them over in so many other ways is unjust. The Tories pushing mandatory military service in the UK after screwing over future generations with Brexit is the ultimate middle finger to every youth in that country.

[Truenorth00]

Will add too, that it is particularly galling to me when people who have never served themselves insist that others should be forced to serve. It's always easy to volunteer somebody else's life. Apparently, "lead by example" is something this lot never learned.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If this were ever to be a semi-serious suggestion, I wouldn't suggest building it around military service. But something like a civil defence corps. Teach them first aid, firefighting, basic rescue, environmental protection etc. Use them for fighting forest fires, disaster response, evacuating communities, planting trees, etc. In this way, they can actually free up the real professionals in the CAF, Forest Service, Coast Guard, etc to really focus on important jobs. They can be trained in 3 months for something like this. And serve for 3 months. That would be enough time to be both useful and inculcate the values that are usually the goals of this kind of program.

But again, imposing this on young people, while screwing them over in so many other ways is unjust. The Tories pushing mandatory military service in the UK after screwing over future generations with Brexit is the ultimate middle finger to every youth in that country.

Planting trees is done by the private sector and paid for by forest companies. It is a physically challenging job and the companies that do it routinely recruit on college and university campuses. Not certain at all why a government agency needs to get involved in that HR function.

In BC there is a host of private contractors providing that service to the provincial government. They recruit on university and collage campus locations for people to do that over the summer when demand is high. Again not certain why a government agency needs to be added to the mix.

If we want 19 year olds to learn how to respond to natural disasters, perhaps give the Red Cross money to run a program where they train and hire high school grades to learn that trade, spend a year embedded in their organization doing it.

All for making military service more attractive so 19 year old chose to join. Forcing them does not should like a great idea.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by casper

Planting trees is done by the private sector and paid for by forest companies. It is a physically challenging job and the companies that do it routinely recruit on college and university campuses. Not certain at all why a government agency needs to get involved in that HR function.

In BC there is a host of private contractors providing that service to the provincial government. They recruit on university and collage campus locations for people to do that over the summer when demand is high. Again not certain why a government agency needs to be added to the mix.

If we want 19 year olds to learn how to respond to natural disasters, perhaps give the Red Cross money to run a program where they train and hire high school grades to learn that trade, spend a year embedded in their organization doing it.

All for making military service more attractive so 19 year old chose to join. Forcing them does not should like a great idea.

Also i don’t know how things are in other provinces, but here in BC the water is wet. Unless it’s frozen, in which case it can be solid and hard (we call it “rock water”).

[casper]

Originally Posted by theman23

Also i don’t know how things are in other provinces, but here in BC the water is wet. Unless it’s frozen, in which case it can be solid and hard (we call it “rock water”).

Well, honestly I don't know to what extent other provinces depend on contractors to do forest fighting vrs keeping it inside the provincial government. BC has some in-house forest fighters and some contracted ones.

I know Manitoba contracts out the water bombers. I don't think BC does.

I could see it going either way with the people on the ground.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by casper

If we want 19 year olds to learn how to respond to natural disasters, perhaps give the Red Cross money to run a program where they train and hire high school grades to learn that trade, spend a year embedded in their organization doing it.

All for making military service more attractive so 19 year old chose to join. Forcing them does not should like a great idea.

The idea isn't motivated by the need to have military personnel. It's motivated by the idea that service can inculcate certain values. Like I said above, I don't agree with military conscription and generally think conscript armies are useless in the modern era. But (and it's a big but), if the intent is to demand some form of national service which inculcates values like service to others, patriotism and a sense of community, then that can be done through other forms of national service. I gave my suggested examples.

And given how stretched our military is with fighting forest fires (with the CDS dropping all political correctness and now openly accusing the provinces of abusing military help) and other disasters and the forecasts with climate change, there's an argument to be made that national service is more useful here. And a lot of disaster relief is mundane non-dangerous laborious work, like filling sandbags, assembling shelters, administration of refugees, distributing food and water, etc. A lot of this can be done and trained in weeks. Doing so would also dramatically improve local disaster response throughout Canada.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The idea isn't motivated by the need to have military personnel. It's motivated by the idea that service can inculcate certain values. Like I said above, I don't agree with military conscription and generally think conscript armies are useless in the modern era. But (and it's a big but), if the intent is to demand some form of national service which inculcates values like service to others, patriotism and a sense of community, then that can be done through other forms of national service. I gave my suggested examples.

And given how stretched our military is with fighting forest fires (with the CDS dropping all political correctness and now openly accusing the provinces of abusing military help) and other disasters and the forecasts with climate change, there's an argument to be made that national service is more useful here. And a lot of disaster relief is mundane non-dangerous laborious work, like filling sandbags, assembling shelters, administration of refugees, distributing food and water, etc. A lot of this can be done and trained in weeks. Doing so would also dramatically improve local disaster response throughout Canada.

We already have a voluntary program:
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/yo...ice-corps.html

Forcing people to do things because it is "good for them" just strikes me as a step backwards and a bit patronising. I don't think any organisation (military, red cross, local search and rescue etc.) want to babysit people who clearly don't want to be there.

The military is being stretched to do a wide array of things. It should be putting up resistance to doing things that are clearly not its mandate. If it is an unusual unplanned emergency or a response that requires resources or capabilities that are unique to the military then yes they should be doing it. But if it is happening every year, it is actually something that should be planned for and should not involve pulling solders focused on national defence being pulled into it.

The Rangers are probably the part of the military that has the clearest mandate focused in that area. However, they are very focused on remote and northern communities. Would having a similar organisation that is more urban work? I don't think anyone is expecting the Rangers to deploy into a war zone.

Providing money to paying high school grads to spend a year working with the Red Cross or Local Volunteer Search and Rescue sounds like a great move. They leave having valuable skills and a first job to put on their resume.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by casper

Planting trees is done by the private sector and paid for by forest companies. It is a physically challenging job and the companies that do it routinely recruit on college and university campuses. Not certain at all why a government agency needs to get involved in that HR function.

Around here, some of the best newly planted wooded areas are done by the Scouts as part of the Scout Trees program that they raise money for. Not at an industrial capacity by any means, but we are also talking kids in the dozens. I still love driving up Veterans Parkway in London and seeing the trees my kid helped plant, or the Vimy Memorial trees at London Airport that I helped him with

[casper]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Around here, some of the best newly planted wooded areas are done by the Scouts as part of the Scout Trees program that they raise money for. Not at an industrial capacity by any means, but we are also talking kids in the dozens. I still love driving up Veterans Parkway in London and seeing the trees my kid helped plant, or the Vimy Memorial trees at London Airport that I helped him with

I think we talking about a different kind of operation.

This is what tree planting in BC is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep6sWECi3BE

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by casper

I think we talking about a different kind of operation.

This is what tree planting in BC is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep6sWECi3BE

You realize that Canada is bigger than BC right?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by casper

We already have a voluntary program:
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/yo...ice-corps.html

Forcing people to do things because it is "good for them" just strikes me as a step backwards and a bit patronising. I don't think any organisation (military, red cross, local search and rescue etc.) want to babysit people who clearly don't want to be there.

Did you miss the other posts I made? I specifically said I disagree with the idea of simply forcing young people to do something. It's a petty suggestion from wrinklies who never had to do anything of the sort. And I stated that countries that have national service do have a kind of social contract that specifically provides a ton of benefits to the young, as part of that intergenerational bargain. I would mostly agree that absent some grand bargain like that, such ideas are unjustifiable.

That said, there's evidence that service does actually inculcate some strong values that go beyond just patriotism. Israel, for example, has a highly motivated and disciplined workforce that is somehow competitive in a warzone. They also don't have the obesity we see here. They've arguably got higher cohesion amongst their citizens than we do here.

As I said above too, national service isn't the only way. We could simply institute higher standards to graduate high school including fitness tests, threshold knowledge exams on citizenship and higher community service. We could probably achieve at least half of what national service does without the supposed coercive element of forcing young people to go away and serve.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Did you miss the other posts I made? I specifically said I disagree with the idea of simply forcing young people to do something. It's a petty suggestion from wrinklies who never had to do anything of the sort. And I stated that countries that have national service do have a kind of social contract that specifically provides a ton of benefits to the young, as part of that intergenerational bargain. I would mostly agree that absent some grand bargain like that, such ideas are unjustifiable.

That said, there's evidence that service does actually inculcate some strong values that go beyond just patriotism. Israel, for example, has a highly motivated and disciplined workforce that is somehow competitive in a warzone. They also don't have the obesity we see here. They've arguably got higher cohesion amongst their citizens than we do here.

As I said above too, national service isn't the only way. We could simply institute higher standards to graduate high school including fitness tests, threshold knowledge exams on citizenship and higher community service. We could probably achieve at least half of what national service does without the supposed coercive element of forcing young people to go away and serve.

Physical fitness and cohesion are certainly areas that Canada could improve on but I think you and others we aren't up for the coercive nature of something mandatory. Certainly not unless threatened more directly.

Anyway I think it was a clear attempt by the Cons in UK to appeal to their base. I suspect the Liberals will try something similar but they really seem to have given up. The capital gains tax was a small attempt but they need (ed) to go much bigger. The idea of cancelling the GST and increasing carbon tax or eliminating rebates for example would force Cons to take a tough position. The UK election seems to be a pretty strong foreshadow of what we will see here with polls widening after the writ was dropped. I wonder if Trudeau calls an early election rather than get forced out as leader.

Another thing we could do is do something like 2 months after high school with 2 weeks each summer after that in return University is free. This would be expensive but we could charge it all to our defence budget and eliminate student debt. It would add little to our military capacity but shows how stupid a 2% target is rather than focussing on the output.

[jonny24]

A lot the ideas discussed above sound like the old Ontario Junior Rangers program. My brother and I both did it.

You spend the summer at a camp in Northern Ontario, get paid (less room and board), and do things like clearing trails, maintaining Provincial parks, cleaning up lakes, help out with Native festivals, etc. Rotate through being in the camp kitchen. A highlight was a week-long canoe trip, clearing/maintaining the route as you go to make sure it's all open etc. My uncles did it back in the 80's, back then they also assisted in firefighting (until some kids died than that ended). We had the fire fighters visit out camp and demonstrate how to use a pump dropped in a lake and see what it was like to control a fire hose.

The "fitness and cohesion" aspect reminds me of my wife's experience going to high school in Australia. There, school sports are mandatory - everyone has to play one summer and one winter sport. If you're good/want to, you play on the first team and travel to other schools, and the less competitive people may just play "house league" , but everyone still participated. She did rowing and soccer. IMO playing team sports is a great way to learn how to be a part of something bigger than yourself.

[Truenorth00]

I find the idea of trading GST for carbon taxes quite interesting. Not sure it would fly constitutionally though. Per my understanding, the Supreme Court ruling support carbon taxes was actually based on the interpretation that the federal government was only applying a backstop to provinces that didn't comply. It wasn't imposing a national tax. This provincial flexibility was the key to constitutionality of the federal carbon price plan.

[Acajack]

"Fitness and cohesion"?

Since when does Canada care about "cohesion"?

"Cohesion" is suspect, and maybe even racist.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Will add too, that it is particularly galling to me when people who have never served themselves insist that others should be forced to serve. It's always easy to volunteer somebody else's life. Apparently, "lead by example" is something this lot never learned.

The cohesiveness of the US military hit rock bottom when it imposed mandatory recruitment during the Vietnam War. It took more than a decade of being a volunteer force to heal the wounds.

The general vibe I get from ‘national service’ countries is that it generally causes cleavage between those who are forced to serve and those who manage to weasel out of it somehow via power/money. Plenty of South Koreans and Israelis can tell that story. Don’t think a lot of 18-year old Israelis particularly want to serve in the IDF right now.

As for Canada, national service is a non-starter in the ‘post-national state’ and the mere idea of a country modelled after a bland international airport imposing an ask on its citizens seems kind of ludicrous when you think about it. Anyway, the military vibe is all wrong for this country. Maybe mandatory old-age PSW work or firefighting, if we’re honest about our needs. We used the military for both when our vaunted systems promptly collapsed under stress.

Mandatory PSW service for the young shafted by the old. Clean up my shitty mess, quite literally. Fitting, no?